Deep body vs thin body guitars

[Doctor Jeff]

The more I play my ES-135 the more I think it is the perfect guitar. It even has a bit of thunk to my ears, though I would't accuse it of being light and airy. There is so much variation of tone, at any volume and without worrying about feedback.

I also like my Peerless Sunset, which being fully hollow is surprisingly open and warm.

My full-thickness archies (Godin and Harmony) don't get too much playing time because I just like the ergonomics of the thinlines.

[JeanSut]

I love both and have no problem switching between them ! My main gigging axe is a Sadowsky Semi Hollow. With 12s roundwounds it gets in soundwise in the archtop territory - of course it is not the same... The sound is not as airy as in a deep body guitar.
I do own a Ibanez pm 20 that i like, but I am still looking for something better.
Jack, are you still digging your Seventy Seven Jazz ?

best, Chris

[jzucker]

I love both and have no problem switching between them ! My main gigging axe is a Sadowsky Semi Hollow. With 12s roundwounds it gets in soundwise in the archtop territory - of course it is not the same... The sound is not as airy as in a deep body guitar.
I do own a Ibanez pm 20 that i like, but I am still looking for something better.
Jack, are you still digging your Seventy Seven Jazz ?

best, Chris

I love the seventy seven jazz and it compares very well to the higher end semihollows like the sadowsky and benedetto.

However, it has a very fat neck and at the end of the day, the neck comfort for me is as important as the tone so I am going to sell it I think. I may look at the comins if I can find one and determine whether the neck will fit my hands...Or a 339...

[Gitfiddler]

Robert: some great questions there.

You could hack up a used 525 to put in humbuckers. Others have tried. Are they even making them any more? In any event, I can only guess. There is some kind of tonal sweet spot with the H525, something more than just the great p/us. I had read others hearing saying it was more like an ES-175 than the depth would lead one to suspect. That's how it struck me. I'd love to hear that body with HBs. That sustain you mention is another thing. Is it just the Lollar p/u? I don't know. My 525 did have more sustain than I've heard in similar depth hollowbodies, such as the Peerless Wizard. Mysterious stuff. I suspect it's due to a to how the top laminate is matched to the back and sides. A just right top thickness maybe? Did I just get a really good one? No way to know.

One thing about semis being deeper ... they get quite heavy that way, unless the sound block is very light wood - such as the balsa Gibson used in later ES-137s to lighten the weight.

Or, if the block is not solid. That is (I think) where the best of both worlds comes in on semis. As with the Godin Montreal Premiere. IMO, let down by way bright p/us, but there was a real airiness in that sound, and light weight, courtesy of the unique center block. More like the Gretsch trestle bracing than a solid block.

I agree that there is something special about Heritage's H525. It gets a fatter jazz tone that punches way above its weight class.

As a very happy P90'd H525 owner, I too have wondered what a humbucker would do to that model.

Well...Heritage, Jay Wolfe and Kenny Burrell came up with a cool option...the Heritage Groove Master.

Here's a video review of a Seth Lover loaded Groove Master custom model being reviewed by Rich Steverson...

[medblues]

Gee whiz. I found my ES-175 to be probably the most comfortable guitar I ever played. By comparison, the neck/body geometry of my ES-335 had me playing first-position chords way over in California. It was almost like playing a Gibson Explorer. I loved the 335, but would have preferred the neck/body architecture of the ES-330 (early models).

Point is, the body depth was less of an issue for me than the extended neck length relative to the dimensions of the body.

Did you ever try the 16th-fret-to-the-body Hofners (New President, Jazzica etc) ?

[2bornot2bop]

To the OP's question: Once FAT never back, imo.

[mr. beaumont]

To the OP's question: Once FAT never back, imo.

Once you play gig, you ditch all the big.

[coolvinny]

I still prefer a deep body guitar for pretty much anything in the jazz idiom, but it needs to be right guitar, with the right set up, and ideally I have the ability to get the amp off the floor if it has a large speaker (but most of the time I don't bother). My main player is a 16 x 3 (actually 2 7/8") laminate. I recently picked up a thinline 15" but I can't see it replacing my deep body 16" as my no. 1 guitar even though that is actually why I bought the thinline. FYI 99% of my playing is done standing up, plus I'm not tall, so most would think a deep body guitar is not workable for me - not true. Strap length, strap pin placement and body depth are the key factors in getting a comfortable position with a deep body guitar (I recently learned how a too-short strap can lead to back pain with a full depth guitar...I have now gone to a slightly longer length - although still quite short - and the issue disappeared). I cannot deal with something like a 335 if I'm playing standing...like someone mentioned, the lower frets are just too damn far away. Seated would be fine.

Peter Bernstein is not a big guy and he plays a 17 x 3 (or more than 3 maybe?), playing standing a lot of the time.

[cosmic gumbo]

Once you've gone thin, it's hard not to grin....

[oldane]

To the OP's question: Once FAT never back, imo.

FWIW, I have been playing fat guitars for decades, but I have really bonded with the laminate with 2.5" depth that Tom Painter build for me shortly before he went out of business. If anything, it has a more full and "live" amplified sound than my 1961 ES175 (which is 3.25" deep).

I think as long as we talk about hollowbodies, there are many other variables which may or may not override the body depth as far as amplified tone goes. Of couse the thinner hollowbody will have a thinner acoustic tone, but then laminates are not really meant as acoustic guitars in the first place.

I can hear a difference in amplified tone between my hollowbodies and my solid bodies. However, the tone of the solidbody is still clearly jazzy when the instrument is set up for it and I'd not hesitate to bring a solidbody in situations where I prefer leave my good hollowbodies at home. I count the semis among the solidbodies due to the center block but I have never owned one myself.

[Robertkoa]

People say you can't tell about a Guitar from Demos but I could hear in Demos the extra Resonance in the H525 and sustain more like a good Stoptail Guitar.

I actually called Heritage a few months back ( before they announced the Models cutback ) and asked them why that Model was like that..
They said it has a 'backer board ' under the bridge which does not go through to the back - interesting.

A Custom Build would have probably been too expensive but he wasn't able to quote me anyway.


Now without sidetracking too much the REAL QUESTION for me is :

Why do semi hollows need to be thin or more precisely -

What would happen if someone built Semi Hollows with Tone and Sustain in mind as Primary Goals NOT based on the 335 ?

[I have a Long Scale Bolt on more resonant and louder than most 335s unplugged now and want something else that goes further for Recording].


So I suspect that the Air Column inside produces resonance and bloom and warmer tones in SOME Guitars ( like the Sadowsky Semi Hollow ) but even for less gifted designs - just making 2.5 inch thick resonant semi hollows will give much thicker warmer tones IF the center block is nonexistent -
Just a Block under the bridge and stoptail , hollow everywhere else .

OR a heavily chopped center block ( trestle block , blocks that let air move around etc ) and using Mahogany , Spruce ,Redwood etc NOT MAPLE ).

I think the ES 137 was about 80% there just because of the 2" to 2.25 depth and nice sustain.
I wonder if the Mahogany Block on those was shaped like WWWWWWWW ( highly skilled technical drawing here ) if that alone would push it further - I don't care about the weight or feedback .
Also the 137 I played was not as bright on Neck PU like a Les Paul a plus for me.

Tone knob rolloff = warmer Guitar = No it doesn't = better than being too bright though .

Again a deep semi hollow might not sound exactly like an Archtop - the point is to get the bigger tones and long sustain consistently having zero to do with
feedback or weighing 6 pounds .

I would defer to Builders/ Luthiers and am curious what Bill Comins would say about this.

I really like the sound of the

CSG 16 -2 ...

And his smaller Semi Hollow sounds good ...

BUT - what about a 'grown up ' 25 "or 25.5" scale semi hollow with a deep body and 15.5 "or 16" lower bout ?

IF he made a Semi Hollow same size and possibly using the same top and and back pieces laminate for strength if needed but 2 " or 2.25 to 2.5 inches thick 25 inch scale with a Stoptail ,

Would we have the Phattest sounding Semi Hollow ever made?

Can Mr Comins use the same top and bottom piece sizes and neck from the GCS 16 -2 and make/ design/ supervise a Semi Hollow or Stoptail Semi 2 " or more thick at about $ 2K ?


I would/ will put this or something like it to very good use .

I like the Groovemaster because the strings are not wayyy up high off the face of the Guitar like an Archtop.

I have a way of resting my hand no plant finger for picking/ pick and fingers/ all fingers that is easier with strings near the top of the Guitar... rather than the double bridge thing that real Archtops have ...more like a Flat Top acoustic OR a 335 - 137 where the strings are not way up high .

Groovemaster has really beautiful even sound with sustain like a Howard Roberts Fusion right ?
But a bit more acoustic tone.

[Grez]

What would happen if someone built Semi Hollows with Tone and Sustain in mind as Primary Goals NOT based on the 335 ?

Your'e correct, semi-hollowbodies can be made with significantly more sonic depth and low mid than a 335 using some of the approaches you mentioned, body depth, top materials. As has been noted in the thread already, the 335 is much closer to a Les Paul than an L5. It is a stoutly built instrument making it tighter in the low end. So a semi can be made that is really in the middle, between a solid body and a full hollow, but it seems tough to go much past the middle. Mabye you can get to very thin hollow body territory.......

[Robertkoa]

Thanks for chiming in Barry ..
Here's a Guitar in the 2.25 inch thick sweet spot which is hollow which seems to have very good sustain and can be played to sound kind of
Americana - like an Acoustic.

Or Bensonish or 'conventional ' Jazz but seems to have a longer Decay available ( especially if someone used vibrato)( like someone we know ).

So what about a Stoptail 2.25 " where there is only a
Mahogany block under the Bridge and Stoptail and
very little support or none elsewhere ?

I think the stoptail may be more of a guarantee for sustain - some Guitars can sustain a note indefinitely at 1/2 or more volume from finger vibrato ..my long scale does . Some Guitars are resonant enough to
'ring ' from finger vibrato - it sounds great clean (.no distortion ) on deep Guitars.

So I want to get the rhythms and attack in the lines but on longer notes including unplugged I want the sustain.( if the sustain is there unplugged it's always there amplified ).

So what about a 2.25 to 2.50" deep semi with only a block at the Bridge and Stoptail ?

If your Guitar above was deeper with Humbuckers - seems like it would be much deeper and it already has some beef even played " Rockabilly " style - twangers ...lol. I can hear the resonance on the low strings though .. nice sounding .

With Humbuckers it would sound even bigger , deeper.

The Mendocino for a small Guitar sounds bigger but if it was 16 " wide and a hair deeper 2.5" ..with PAF Style ( and coil cuts ) it would be able to go to 3 " Archtop but do the more ' electric ' things also right ?

I didn't know Redwood was endangered now ..it would be cool to have a top from a 2000 year old tree..

[Grez]

The red one Tim Lerch is playing is a 16" wide, 2" deep semi with a spruce top. The Mendocino is sort of a scaled way down verison, still semi-hollow, but 13.25" x 1.75". Here is the Mendocino with Lollar Imperials. I don't seem to have a good video of the 16" version with humbuckers in it.

Yes, old growth or first growth redwood is protected but in my neck of the woods, 100 years ago or so, everything was made from the stuff. It was just the local lumber. Now it can be found when buildings, bridges, tunnels, water tanks and the like come down. Or, in the case of my current Mendocino production, if an old tree comes down naturally (mud slide) it is then available to be cut up and used.

I haven't experimented much with making my semi-hollowbodies deeper, say 2.5 or 3". I don't doubt that the effect would track with our expectations, just to a lesser degree than would occur with a full hollow with those dimension changes since the center is still pinned by the block.

[Robertkoa]

I love the seventy seven jazz and it compares very well to the higher end semihollows like the sadowsky and benedetto.

However, it has a very fat neck and at the end of the day, the neck comfort for me is as important as the tone so I am going to sell it I think. I may look at the comins if I can find one and determine whether the neck will fit my hands...Or a 339...

Eventually you can get another with the JZucker neck profile like the JZ Exrubato but on the ( a possibly future ) Hawk Jazz Deep , maybe ?

[Robertkoa]

So ...speculate here .

Suppose we had a 335 build laminate ..stoptail , mahogany neck 60's profile .

But - exactly as this thread inquires - what if it had a short block 4 to 6 inches and was 2.5 inches deep with some light bracing but open in the center ?



This may be possible so replies appreciated.

The idea is deeper tones and some warming of the tones compared to a 335 - but obviously all the sustain and bloom .
Think about an ES 350 DC maybe but more stability and sustain ?

I figure that at the very least it would have a smoother top end and with 011s or 012s get some Benson type tones ( not exactly is better ) but bloom on the long notes...
And not sound like a Les Paul on Recordings ..

What's the worst that could happen ?

What's the best that could happen ?

[Robertkoa]

Robert: some great questions there.

You could hack up a used 525 to put in humbuckers. Others have tried. Are they even making them any more? In any event, I can only guess. There is some kind of tonal sweet spot with the H525, something more than just the great p/us. I had read others hearing saying it was more like an ES-175 than the depth would lead one to suspect. That's how it struck me. I'd love to hear that body with HBs. That sustain you mention is another thing. Is it just the Lollar p/u? I don't know. My 525 did have more sustain than I've heard in similar depth hollowbodies, such as the Peerless Wizard. Mysterious stuff. I suspect it's due to a to how the top laminate is matched to the back and sides. A just right top thickness maybe? Did I just get a really good one? No way to know.

One thing about semis being deeper ... they get quite heavy that way, unless the sound block is very light wood - such as the balsa Gibson used in later ES-137s to lighten the weight.

Or, if the block is not solid. That is (I think) where the best of both worlds comes in on semis. As with the Godin Montreal Premiere. IMO, let down by way bright p/us, but there was a real airiness in that sound, and light weight, courtesy of the unique center block. More like the Gretsch trestle bracing than a solid block.

I asked Heritage about one of those about a year ago ...a 525 - they said it has a backer board the block not all the way through ...it would have been kind of hard to get one and more expensive than I thought but I didn't try Jay Wolfe - I may have another option though now ...depends .

The Guy at Heritage said that others mentioned the fat warmth that axe 525 had too but was not a Player .

[rhoadsscholar]

Here is a picture of a Benson approved design I am fortunate to own. A 3 inch depth, 330 style guitar built by heritage with Humbuckers a 25 1/2"" Scale. Love this.

So ...speculate here .

Suppose we had a 335 build laminate ..stoptail , mahogany neck 60's profile .

But - exactly as this thread inquires - what if it had a short block 4 to 6 inches and was 2.5 inches deep with some light bracing but open in the center ?



This may be possible so replies appreciated.

The idea is deeper tones and some warming of the tones compared to a 335 - but obviously all the sustain and bloom .
Think about an ES 350 DC maybe but more stability and sustain ?

I figure that at the very least it would have a smoother top end and with 011s or 012s get some Benson type tones ( not exactly is better ) but bloom on the long notes...
And not sound like a Les Paul on Recordings ..

What's the worst that could happen ?

What's the best that could happen ?

[Robertkoa]

That's really cool Heritage has done quite a few innovative builds it seems ....

[Longways to Go]

I thought for years that the 335 style would be the end-all be-all swiss army knife of guitars for me.
It seems so logical, so flexible, so able. I know it's a great style and I figured it would do everything I could ever want.

So I shopped and shopped, trying out so many . . . a couple of guitars came pretty close to the sound and feel I wanted. There was one I might have taken home if I had the money. There was a decent 335 at a pawn shop, but the shop owner was a dick and I couldn't stand the idea of buying from him so I had to walk away! But also I was surprised at how disappointed I was by so many "nice" guitars I tried as my search went on.

Then I got an ES 175 last year.

My search for the right semi-hollow is over. ES 175 is the end of story for me.

[Gitfiddler]

I asked Heritage about one of those about a year ago ...a 525 - they said it has a backer board the block not all the way through ...it would have been kind of hard to get one and more expensive than I thought but I didn't try Jay Wolfe - I may have another option though now ...depends .

The Guy at Heritage said that others mentioned the fat warmth that axe 525 had too but was not a Player .

Not sure if this is what you are considering, but Heritage has built H525's with humbuckers instead of P90's before. I can't see why this would increase the cost by very much.

Here's one with Benedetto A6 p'ups:

Heritage Custom RARE H 525 Almond Burst 1995 with Benedetto HUMBUCKERS, not P-90 1599 | My Les Paul Forum

[pingu]

Ibanez AF220




A thiner AF200 I believe , only made for one year
so a bit rare , nice tho

[bananafist]

I haven't played one, and can't claim to be an expert, but Marchione builds very thin archtops, and they sound quite full to me.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Did you ever try the 16th-fret-to-the-body Hofners (New President, Jazzica etc) ?

And what about the Verythins?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

To the OP's question: Once FAT never back, imo.

Once you play gig, you ditch all the big.

Once you've gone thin, it's hard not to grin....

Don't forget neck profile: one you try big, you don't go twig.