opinions on finger tailpieces

[JazzNote]

I'm wondering what some people dislike about the finger tailpieces on guitars as found on the Gibson LeGrand, some LeeRitenour L5's, the eighties Johnny Smith models, the Super V and some Heritages.

While i like L5 tailpieces on regular L5CES's (which are kind of heavy anyway), i appreciate the lightweight finger tp on the LeGrand and the LeRitenour model. Designwise i find the finger tp to be very sophisticated and the possibility to control the angle of the strings over the bridge is a great feature.

[Max405]

JazzNote,
I've taken a couple off in my travels. They are heavier than you would think.
I never found them to be much of a fine tuner like some others have mentioned. But you can tell the difference in string tension when you play with them. So you can balance the "feel" of the strings better.
I think they are cool looking.. But like the frequensator tailpiece on Epiphones, they make string changes a pain in the ass.
Joe D

[Jabberwocky]

I agree with Max405. Cool-looking but a pain in the posterior when it comes to string changing. Looks great on a LeGrand. On a Gibson Johnny Smith, I prefer the L5 tailpiece because it balances the elongated headstock visually. The LeGrand has a regular Gibson headstock and is a smaller-sized archtop than the Gibson Johnny Smith so the Fingers tailpiece gives it a fleet-footed much less ponderous visual style.

[JazzNote]

JazzNote,
I've taken a couple off in my travels. They are heavier than you would think.
I never found them to be much of a fine tuner like some others have mentioned. But you can tell the difference in string tension when you play with them. So you can balance the "feel" of the strings better.
I think they are cool looking.. But like the frequensator tailpiece on Epiphones, they make string changes a pain in the ass.
Joe D

For me it is no fine tuner at all. Someone once wrote that it got designated "fine tuner" because this enabled the designer to put a patent on the device.

For me no pain in the ass anymore when i change strings. I tightly roll a small towel or cloth, place it under the fingers and after removing the strings i move it towards the rim. This way "the fingers stay in the air", don't hit the top and remain fairly stable during the process of restringing.

[JazzNote]

I agree with Max405. Cool-looking but a pain in the posterior when it comes to string changing. Looks great on a LeGrand. On a Gibson Johnny Smith, I prefer the L5 tailpiece because it balances the elongated headstock visually. The LeGrand has a regular Gibson headstock and is a smaller-sized archtop than the Gibson Johnny Smith so the Fingers tailpiece gives it a fleet-footed much less ponderous visual style.

Yep, certainly cool looking. I agree about the the better balance of a L5 tailpiece on the Johnny Smith. Interestingly i found the fingers tailpiece on my LeeRitenour to have shorter fingers than the ones on the LeGrands. Maybe the ones on a Johnny Smith would need to be even longer to achieve the same balance ;-).

[wintermoon]

personally I don't like the look, but that could be because trapeze t.p.'s are the norm and I'm not a big 'change' guy.
if most arctops came w/the Ottenger t.p. and I saw a trapeze I might feel the same way about trapeze's.

[QAman]

I have both a Legrand and Lee Rit with the finger tail pc and it's visual appeal ( to me) far out weighs any alleged tuning benefit.

The string changes are challenging and I find myself just snugging down the adjustment screw very lightly.

Ive spoken to both Heritage and Gibson about the use of these tail pcs and both gave nebulous answers - other than do not over tighten or top may be damaged.

[GNAPPI]

When a string breaks it stays in tune so if you were on stage and could live without a high E you could finish the song without having to change gits, and I do like it better than the tuner for fine tuning. You can also tweak tune a string whilst chording if on stage without doing dead in the middle of a song to tune, and it seems as if it doesn't ever have nut ping. I have never noted a string tension issue because I set up the fingers centered so I can tune strings with the widest effect.

Ibanez also has a stop TP with "fine tuners" on it and it works pretty much the same without long fingers. I like them both on my Howard Roberts Fusion and AS-103.

My HRF is 7 lbs. 12 oz. and my 335 with a stop TP is 8 lb. 7 oz. but I haven't taken any TP off to weigh them but it seems as if weight is negligible. Oh, sorry I did take off a few horrible Bigsby B6 trems and they weigh more than a simple trapeze.

As far as patents go, they're written to protect a design as widely as possible whether the features "claimed" are used / usable or not. It's obvious from the comments on the web it goes both ways.

The downside is that any git they're installed on make the git more expensive, other than that, they should be rather invisible if you don't use one.

[Gitfiddler]

My first introduction to the finger tailpiece was on a HR Fusion. Very cool looking and functional, but a bit of a pain when time to change strings, but nowhere near the PIA of a Bigsby or other whammy bar git.

Another benefit is that it can really class-up some archtops.

I love how this Heritage H575 transformed from a Chevy to a Caddy by swapping out its stock bail tailpiece to the six finger.

[ptchristopher3]

Look up an oettinger tailpiece patent.

They are claimed (in 1929) to fine tune, despite the relative uselessness of this as a feature.

In a guitar they do absolutely nothing whatsoever. I understand that some experience a different feel and that is great. There is no measurable reason for this different experience some feel.

But if you feel somehting and it inspires playing, then great.

My grandfather was a pro tenor banjo player. His Oettinger tailpiece could make a very noticeable difference in sound (but not feel, since he was not given to suggestible occult experiences). But that is on a banjo with a VERY critical downforce on the head vs. our relatively industrial arch tops.

I do not at all mean to disparage those who truly feel a difference. But I have tried at some length to measure this difference and it robustly eludes objectivity. Much like "adjusting" the stop tailpiece on a Les Paul. Many experience a difference that seems to not be an actual physical phenomenon.

But much as one dances not to simply get to the other side of the floor, we play guitars as an experience that does not need to answer to the simple Newtonian physics of the total "experience".

If one feels a difference that is great by me.

I think they look great.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

US patent number 1713855 and 20070214932.

If this matters vs. web lore. I sort of suspect it does not.

[entresz]

I had a TP-6 fine tuner tailpiece on a '77 Gibson L-6S. Other than aesthetically looking interesting, the 'fine tuning' feature was not useful. Perhaps if I used light strings, but with 12s or 13s it just wasn't needed.

[neatomic]

In making theories, always keep a window open so that you can throw one out if necessary. - Bela Lugosi



cheers

[GNAPPI]

2969703 A dated 1957 (patent for a guitar TP not a banjo...) "These adjustment screws can also be used as a fine tuning mechanism for adjusting the pitch of each string."

That's how I use them... YMMV

[Danny W.]

I've had them on a bunch of guitars: several Johnny Smiths, several Super Vs, a couple of LeGrands, and an L-5 Lee Rit. I'm indifferent to them--just another tailpiece as far as I'm concerned. A former member of this board claimed that the fingers rattled, but I've never had that happen. I wedge some foam under the fingers when changing strings. I never use them to tune.

Dannt W.

[Greentone]

Growing up, I played scads of banjos that had Oettinger tailpieces. (My father was a tenor banjo player. I learned tenor banjo before I learned guitar--I'm not THAT old, just grew up in a family that valued music from the 20s-30s.)

The first guitar I ever played with an Oettinger (finger) tailpiece was a 1929 Gibson L-5 that had a VERY old three-finger Oettinger tailpiece. Each finger had two terminal slots that held strings--two times three equals six. This L-5 sounded (sounds--I still get to play it occasionally) fantastic.

I have always liked the Gibsons that featured the fingers tailpieces--especially the Super-V and the Johnny Smith models. They look good and sound great.

Ditto the Heritage guitars--especially Super Eagle, Golden Eagle and Johnny Smith--that have fingers tailpieces. I don't use the tailpieces as fine tuners the way I do on the E and A strings on a fiddle. Instead, as others have mentioned, the tailpieces are a way of equalizing string tension. In this capacity, the tailpiece works well.

The cloth trick mentioned above is a neat way to prevent the tailpiece units from crashing into the top at string-changing time.

[GNAPPI]

Dunno how effective it needs to be to actually be a "fine tuner" but here's mine, end to end.

[Stringswinger]

I had one on a Howard Roberts Fusion. I found that string changing was a pain (I also feel that way about Frequensators and Bigsbys). If a guitar came with it, I would probably live with it, but I would never choose one.

I have used the TP-6 Tailpiece an a couple of Les Pauls and do like them. In fact the two things that Norlin did that I like are the TP-6 and the switch to Chrome (Being a long time Harley guy, Chrome looks good to me. Nickel looks fine but tarnishes fast)

[rpjazzguitar]

I played the Gibson L5S with the TP-6 for many years. I used it more than the tuners on the headstock.

But, that's because I didn't find the headstock tuners to be precise enough. Original equipment.

I've had other guitars where the headstock tuners were fine and I never thought about wanting fine tuners too.

[MacGringo]

Don't forget the Howard Roberts Fusion models that also have the finger TP. Just got it, string are new so have not done a string change yet. But most hollows, semis with extended tail pieces are a pain when changing strings. Comes with the territory i suppose.

[GNAPPI]

If this matters vs. web lore. I sort of suspect it does not. >>snip<< In a guitar they do absolutely nothing whatsoever. I understand that some experience a different feel and that is great. There is no measurable reason for this different experience some feel.[/FONT]

Suspect no more, it does not. You saw the video

[ptchristopher3]

Suspect no more, it does not. You saw the video

Hi Gary,

Yes indeed it fine tunes if one finds that useful. Great demo vid.

I suppose for use as a fine tuner one would do best to set it at the mid point between no deflection of the tail end of the string and maximum deflection of the tail end.

Chris.

[ptchristopher3]

Maybe 5 years ago I saw an HR Fusion III at Sam Ash at the old Manny's location. It was a very late version and in a rare natural finish so I was very tempted since I could have taken the goo off the neck and re-finished easily enough to be not sticky. Probably should have gotten it. Great guitars.

The red one above looks great.

[Jabberwocky]

I would be happier if the tines were available for sale individually. Just for the shape of a carêt, I'd have two long ones for the D-G, two medium ones for the A-B, two short ones for the E-E pairs.

I wonder why they are staggered the way they are currently. What's the reasoning? Lighter gauge strings require a greater break angle?

PS Have this rather barmy idea of getting a Cherry Red ES-275 and suturing an ABM Müller 1501G short Fingers TP in place of the Diamond crossbar TP. The HR Fusion III gave me ideas...

[citizenk74]

I would be happier if the tines were available for sale individually. Just for the shape of a carêt, I'd have two long ones for the D-G, two medium ones for the A-B, two short ones for the E-E pairs.

My thoughts precisely.