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I definitely favor a wider i.e. 1 11/16" or 1 3/4" nut width and have not really considered the typical late 60's Gibsons with the 1 9/16" nut width. I recall looking at a mint 60's ES330 for a great price a couple of years back, but I could not get on with the narrow nut--mostly due to the string spacing at the nut. More recently I sat in on a friend's late 60's Kessel with the narrow nut (that's been his number one for many years) and didn't really have an issue adjusting. I also had an opportunity to try a Super 400 and it felt cramped, and a different Kessel that while measuring the narrow width felt good! So it's a little confusing to me. I understand that there may be slight variations in the string spacing i.e. how the nut is cut, but I wouldn't think it would amount to much. I'm considering making a play for an instrument from this era due to the "relative" bargains and great sound. I'm concerned that if I play one that gives me a good first impression that I may be disappointed later. FWIW my first good instrument was a '68 ES335 purchased new--in those days we never even thought about such things lol. Anyone have any feedback, or similar experiences--buying one that you liked initially and then later regretted, or comments on the 1 9/16" thing overall?
Thx
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07-07-2017 12:40 PM
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Depending on the neck profile, some can live with a narrow nut if there's some meat to the neck. I've played 1 5/8" nuts on D'Angelico's that had rounded profiles and was ok.
But a 1 5/8" nut or smaller with 60s Gibson profile is a deal killer for me.
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I much favor the wider nut. However, there is one type of music for which I actually prefer the narrow Gibson (or Fender) neck: FUNK. When I am playing funk music--I'm talking, here, about getting in the zone and just going for the trance--I find that a B-neck Telecaster from the 60s, or a narrow-necked ES-175D is the guitar to use. Those are funk machines.
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I've never found going from 1 9/16" to 1 3/4" to be an issue, as long as the guitar is set up to my liking. For a gig, I usually try to keep the string spacing very similar for the guitars I take though (I normally take two). My main gigging Tal is 1 5/8" which is a pretty good spot because I feel comfortable taking most of my other guitars as my second, including my 1 9/16" nut Casino. I have a couple with 1 3/4" nuts, but they are acoustic oriented archtops that I don't gig with anyway.
Originally Posted by stringmaster
I worry that jumping from 1 9/16" to 1 11/16" or 1 3/4" might trip me up some in front of an audience. Based on playing at home, it really shouldn't though.
There are a lot of pro players that switch between very different stringed instruments at shows (guitar, banjo, bass, violin) and don't have issues. Maybe just think of it as being a multi-instrumentalist.
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"There are a lot of pro players that switch between very different stringed instruments at shows (guitar, banjo, bass, violin) and don't have issues. Maybe just think of it as being a multi-instrumentalist."
+1
I do switch between mandolin, banjo, tenor banjo, guitar, etc. The necks are all over the place. No big deal.
I agree with ThatRhythmMan about different guitars. Again, I like 1.75" nut widths--I started out on a 2" classical neck, after all--but I don't mind different guitars/widths.
A good B-neck Fender with a 7.25" radius is quite comfortable. It's pretty round, though. It's sort of like playing an ear of corn--in terms of the dimension/feel of the neck (but smoother).
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I think it much depends on the feel of the neck - size included - rather than just nut width. Why some guitars feel right and others don't is pretty mysterious. My '66 ES-335 does feel right, despite that narrow nut width. I had the guitar years before I even noticed. Now I do, but only cause I've had more guitar experience. I haven't tried that 335 for jazz. Not sure if it would be right for that purpose, with more complex chords.
MD
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Interesting, I thought my 1996 Tal was a bit out of spec having a 1 10/16 nut width instead of the expected 1 11/16; it doesn't feel much different than my 1 11/16 instruments however and is actually a bliss to play! Originally Posted by ThatRhythmMan
I never played a 1 9/16 instrument but I suspect I might adapt depending on the neck profile.
I struggle more with 1.75 and over instrument or simply when the string spacing is wider than I am used to.
I sold a gorgeous sounding Seagull Maritime because of the 1.8 nut, that guitar was bought unseen and I had unfortunately missed the nut width in the description...
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I believe Jimmy Nolen played an ES-175 on a lot of james Brown's funkiest stuff. Originally Posted by Greentone
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Hmmmm.... I have a narrow necked 60s 175D (I call it the hand crusher) and since I put rounds on it for a joke, the bridge pickup is FEISTY!!!
Funk machine - yup I can dig it.
That thing is bright...
Guitar sounds amazing with flats though.... I do find it quite hard to play in some ways. Worth it though...Last edited by christianm77; 07-07-2017 at 04:13 PM.
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That's right. Nolen played both the 175 and the ES-5 Switchmaster. In his hands, these were great funk machines.
The great Motown guitarist Robert White played a florentine cutaway Gibson L-5CES on the many funk recordings he recorded for Motown, Tamla, etc., in Detroit. Like Nolen's archtop, White's archtop was super for his funk playing. (Of course, White was seated along side Eddie Willis and Joe Messina. Willis played a Firebird and Messina played his hybrid Telecaster/Jazzmaster. The three guys just churned out great sounds. White, though, was the senior partner in this endeavor.)
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^
yep, and had to sell the L5 and died broke.
I read a story that late in life when broke he was eating in a diner and the Supreme's "You Keep Me Hangin On" came on the jukebox w/his signature intro.
He started to tell the waitress it was him playing but said something like 'never mind'
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Try the middle position. Even with flats, that hint of quack can do it to it. I adjust the height and angle of all my two (and three) pickup axes to max quack in mid position and knob-twiddle for nuance. I freely confess to being a knob/switch/slider/screwdriver fiddler, and all-around tweaker. Once I find the sweet spot(s)however, I can re-find and refine them almost instinctively. Originally Posted by christianm77
As for the narrowness, I strive for a vertical address to the fretboard by the fingertip. Easier said than done, granted, but practice and perfection maintain their close relationship in my experience. Endeavo(u)r to perservere.
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I've never owned a Gibson with the 1 9/16" nut ...
I just remember an early 60s Super 400 with a thin neck that I tried. I really did not like the neck and it sounded awful.
That put me off of 60s Gibsons .... definitely a pay before I play era for Gibsons. I'd rather have a 70s Norlin Gibson.
I studied classical with the wide neck in my college days ... I currently have a 1 13/16" Campellone archtop ... takes a little adjustment when I haven't picked it up in a while, but it helps my fat fingers squeeze in some of the tighter chords while playing chord melody
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Middle is a great all round position with flats. Phillip Catherine? Originally Posted by citizenk74
Try the middle position. Even with flats, that hint of quack can do it to it. I adjust the height and angle of all my two (and three) pickup axes to max quack in mid position and knob-twiddle for nuance. I freely confess to being a knob/switch/slider/screwdriver fiddler, and all-around tweaker. Once I find the sweet spot(s)however, I can re-find and refine them almost instinctively.
As for the narrowness, I strive for a vertical address to the fretboard by the fingertip. Easier said than done, granted, but practice and perfection maintain their close relationship in my experience. Endeavo(u)r to perservere.
I may have a fiddle (ooh matron) at some point though!
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In general 1 11/16 is my preference. 1 5/8 and 1 3/4 still works for me. I have owned two Gibsons with the 1 9/16 nut. THAT size is the deal killer for me.
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What was the idea, why did Gibson narrow the neck?
And then: when did they stop that narrowing? Why?
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They wanted the necks to be "faster" to play. Originally Posted by Herbie
The high end models returned to 1 11/16" in mid "69, some lower line models took a couple more yrs before getting wide again.
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My 51 Gibson Super 300 has a nut (original) width of 1 11/16 " with an E-E string center to string center width of 1 1/2" . I had the saddle width string center to string center spacing reduced slightly to 2 1/8" and had the string spacing adjusted accordingly from the original Gibson saddle dimensions when I had a new saddle made . I found the original placement of the low and high E strings too close to the fingerboard edge for comfort.
Nut width/spacing seems fine . Original saddle width/spacing not so much
Will
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Something I forgot to mention. Not width may or may not be a decisive factor. It's a personal thing. For me there's one strong incentive to not steer clear of the later 60s Gibsons. When you do get a good one, it's REALLY good. My '66 ES-335 has the best sounding humbuckers I've found yet, and is a very playable and responsive instrument. Nut width matters, but these other things (to me) matter more.
MD
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Interesting idea. Did any other builder get the same idea or was it their pioneer invention? Originally Posted by wintermoon
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IF the guitar needs a refret, then you can always do what my luthier did to my 1969 es-175: he refretted without the nibs, and over the binding. This resulted in ever so slightly wider frets, which then allowed him to cut a new nut with a slightly wider e-e string-spacing. As it happens, a lot of '60s Gibsons are probably in need of a refret anyways.
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Yeah - TBH mine probably is, frets feel v low to me.... I should take it in to my local miracle worker, but I just can't stop playing it... Originally Posted by Socraticaster
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I feel exactly the same. 1 11/16" is ideal, but 1/16 more or less is still ok. When it gets down to 1 9/16", I'm out. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Keith
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Great minds think alike! Originally Posted by floatingpickup
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I like the neck to be 1 3/4 but I can deal with 1 11/16 if the string spacing in great. Anything narrower and it does not feel right. I even like them a bit bigger than 1 3/4, just a smig bigger but no definite measurement.
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