Anyone using 'treble bleed' on their jazz box?

[rabbit]

Inspired by the course of 'Best Jazz Pickups' thread.

Single or double-coil?

Thanks.

[ruger9]

I am, altho my current "jazzbox" is a Gretsch 6120 which I employ the tone switch on to achieve more Gibson-humbucker-like tones (it has filtertrons). But I'm a fan of treble bleeds in general... I think it's a great way to get a clean sound from an amp that's set slightly dirty, without losing the highs. Some people LIKE the highs lost when turning down, but I don't see the need for that when you have a tone control (or in my case, a tone switch). I have either treble bleeds or "50s wiring" on all my guitars.

50's wiring is a little different... it doesn't retain all the highs a treble bleed does, but it retains alot more than standard wiring. some people think it sounds more "natural" than a treble bleed. I don't think one is better than the other- they both have their purpose, and work well on different guitars.

[rabbit]

Thank you!

Now I've got to investigate & 'sound out' 50's wiring.

P.S.: I sorta envy you that 6120.

[ruger9]

P.S.: I sorta envy you that 6120.

They're pretty cool. The tone switch makes them more versatile for jazz, because Grestch pickups (whether they are Filtertrons or Dynasonics) are VERY bright, and mid-scooped..... that's that "Great Gretsch Sound". But I personally really don't see them as jazzboxes; they are kind of their own thing... I'd love to have an ES-125....

[before someone posts a video of somebody playing jazz on a Grestch, I didn't say you couldn't play jazz on one, just that I really don't see them in the realm of "jazzbox", myself... just like I don't really see a 335 as a "jazzbox" either, but I've heard some pretty darned good jazz being played on one]

[feet]

as a fellow gretsch owner (g6118t with a treble bleed), i'll agree with most of what he says. "jazzy" tones, but not what i'd reach for first if that's what i'm after.

always meant to install treble bleeds on my standard 4 knob guitars, but i've never gotten around to it. all of my have modern wiring, which i like, save for the treble roll off. but each one would require i slightly different value and i don't have the patience to experiment since i use a tech.

[MaxTwang]

My favorite tone control is slightly rolling off the volume. No treble bleeds here.

[entresz]

I wired a treble bleed to my Gibson L6-S but didn't like how it made the tone shrill when I backed the volume back. Was quickly removed.

However, the treble bleed on my Telecaster is great. Would never remove it.

My Greco ES-175 copy has 50's wiring - this works better than the treble bleed on my L6-S, but it isn't perfect either. The tone controls cut a fair bit of volume as well as tone.

It depends on the guitar IMO.

[docbop]

I'd like to trying one I don't like the tone changing when I drop the volume.

[ruger9]

I wired a treble bleed to my Gibson L6-S but didn't like how it made the tone shrill when I backed the volume back. Was quickly removed.

However, the treble bleed on my Telecaster is great. Would never remove it.

My Greco ES-175 copy has 50's wiring - this works better than the treble bleed on my L6-S, but it isn't perfect either. The tone controls cut a fair bit of volume as well as tone.

It depends on the guitar IMO.

I think what it depends on are the VALUES of the capacitor & resistor... if you google treble bleeds, you'll see different pickup builders have different values. The reason the treble bleed works so well on my Gretsch is that I bought it from TV Jones- the same guy who made the pickups- and the treble bleed & pickups are well-matched.

However, I will say that same treble bleed also works very well on my PRS (PAF humbuckers).

[ruger9]

I'd like to trying one I don't like the tone changing when I drop the volume.

The good news is, they are super-simple to install... and UN-install if you don't like it. 2 tiny solder points, on the volume pot. That's it. Most of the time I install them right on top of the current wiring (no de-soldering necessary), then if I decide to remove it, I simply clip it out- again, no de-soldering necessary.)

Then, if you decide it's TOO bright when turning down, you can either mess with the values (google is your friend), or try 50's wiring instead. Which is again, dead simple. On a guitar with 1 vol 1 tone, all you do is move 1 end of the wire connecting the vol & tone to a different tab on the pot. That's it. I've never installed a treble bleed on my beloved #1 (American Std. Tele) because the 50's wiring works so well on that guitar.

[Rob MacKillop]

Sorry, but can someone explain to me what a treble bleed is?

[ruger9]

Sorry, but can someone explain to me what a treble bleed is?

It is a cap and resistor soldered to a volume pot, so that when you turn the volume down, it sends low end to ground... it "bleeds off" low end [so as you can see it's inappropriately named LOL], so when you turn down for cleaner tones, treble is retained and the tone doesn't get muddy.

[Meggy]

I always use a parallel 0.001uf capacitor/150K resistor treble bleed on all my electric guitars. And always with an audio taper pot, generally 500K - the treble bleed has the added (to me) beneficial effect of softening the pot taper a little, giving a nice, not too fast or too slow, volume change as I turn down. I've never perceived any detrimental effect on the guitar tone, the treble bleed just does it's thing, and keeps the tone sounding consistent when I back the volume off.

[Meggy]

This is a useful reference (if quite involved!) for those interested in fitting a treble bleed: A better treble bleed circuit | GuitarNutz 2

[ruger9]

I always use a parallel 0.001uf capacitor/150K resistor treble bleed on all my electric guitars. And always with an audio taper pot, generally 500K - the treble bleed has the added (to me) beneficial effect of softening the pot taper a little, giving a nice, not too fast or too slow, volume change as I turn down. I've never perceived any detrimental effect on the guitar tone, the treble bleed just does it's thing, and keeps the tone sounding consistent when I back the volume off.

I have those same values on a 250K audio taper with Filtertrons, and a 500K audio taper with PAFs- and both work great.

[Rob MacKillop]

Thanks, ruger9. No wonder I couldn't figure it out from what it's called!

[Meggy]

I have those same values on a 250K audio taper with Filtertrons, and a 500K audio taper with PAFs- and both work great.

Yep, me too - seems to work well with both single coil and humbucker pickups. I have used 120K resistors instead of the 150K, and that was a very similar result, so I guess it's not super-critical, but certainly 150K is very good. FWIW I have 500K audio volume pots on my strat and tele, and don't find anything wrong with the tone, although I know most would prefer a 250K, which of course is fair enough.

[docbop]

The good news is, they are super-simple to install... and UN-install if you don't like it. 2 tiny solder points, on the volume pot. That's it. Most of the time I install them right on top of the current wiring (no de-soldering necessary), then if I decide to remove it, I simply clip it out- again, no de-soldering necessary.)

Then, if you decide it's TOO bright when turning down, you can either mess with the values (google is your friend), or try 50's wiring instead. Which is again, dead simple. On a guitar with 1 vol 1 tone, all you do is move 1 end of the wire connecting the vol & tone to a different tab on the pot. That's it. I've never installed a treble bleed on my beloved #1 (American Std. Tele) because the 50's wiring works so well on that guitar.

Thanks, have to trying it on my Tele first, but like in on my 175 more. I read both Gibson and Fender had treble bleed type circuits early on.

[sgosnell]

I routinely install them on all my guitars, and I don't find that they get shrill as the tone is rolled off. That does depend on the values of the resistor and capacitor used. I didn't install one on my Benedetto, though. It seems to have been factory-installed, because the tone doesn't change much at all as the volume is rolled back. Someday when I get my round tuit I need to check and see what is in the circuit inside, I haven't opened anything up yet, and it has no f holes to peek through. I really don't want the volume control to change the tone. That's what the tone control is for. If the volume is going to do it, why bother to have a tone control?

[ruger9]

I really don't want the volume control to change the tone. That's what the tone control is for. If the volume is going to do it, why bother to have a tone control?

Exactamundo.

[SamBooka]

I put a .022 (IIRC) as my bypass cap. the effect is that at first when I roll off the volume it rolls off the bass mostly.. when I roll the last 20% it acts as a volume. If I were doing Yngwie volume swells this would NOT be a good idea.. but for me it works and it can take a bit of muddyness off when I roll the tone control back. I do this on my tele and my 165.

[ptchristopher3]

It is a cap and resistor soldered to a volume pot, so that when you turn the volume down, it sends low end to ground... it "bleeds off" low end [so as you can see it's inappropriately named LOL], so when you turn down for cleaner tones, treble is retained and the tone doesn't get muddy.

Not picking nits here at all, but when choosing values in the circuit and understanding what is happening, this is definitely not how I would describe the situation at all.

The added components allow highs to "bleed" through to the amp (or wherever your signal is going), they do not at all bleed lows to ground.

Potential means voltage.

A potentiometer (when wired as the component is designed) is a way to sample (or measure, or "meter") the voltage (aka potential). Thus the odd sounding name.

So the pot should be impedance matched (in value) to the signal, with one end at "hot" and the other at "ground".

Then the center wiper is used to sample the voltage along the continuum between hot and ground.

In our profoundly imperfect world there is interaction between the pot and the PU coil, cable, other pots in the guitar, and sometimes a too-low input impedance in a pedal or amp.

So, as you tap off less and less of the voltage by "turning down" the pot there can also be a relative loss of the higher frequencies.

The treble bleed allows some of the highs to bleed through from "hot" directly to the output (center wiper of the pot).

In principle most treble bleed values seem like they would result in an absurd amount of high end as you turn down the volume pot. But as you turn down the pot, you are also loading down the highs that get through the "bleed" with ever lower impedance.

So it works. But needs some tweaking often to get what you perceive as an unaltered tone as you use the volume control.

[KirkP]

It is a cap and resistor soldered to a volume pot, so that when you turn the volume down, it sends low end to ground... it "bleeds off" low end [so as you can see it's inappropriately named LOL], so when you turn down for cleaner tones, treble is retained and the tone doesn't get muddy.

I'd explain it a little differently. The volume pot is an attenuator, ideally affecting all frequencies equally. The capacitor allows some highs to "bleed" past the pot so they aren't attenuated as much as they otherwise would have been. The values of the capacitor (and optional resisters) determine how the high frequency response is affected as you turn down.

The bleed cap will have virtually no effect at full volume and maximum effect at low volume. If you typically play with your guitar's volume knob dialed back but you feel that makes it too dark, a bleed cap can help.

Lately, I like to keep the guitar's volume knob turned down and the amp set fairly bright to compensate (instead of using a bleed cap). If the band gets loud, turning the volume knob up makes the guitar somewhat brighter, which helps me cut through without getting muddy.

[ruger9]

ah, I figured PTC would check in LOL

I don't claim to be an electrical engineer. I merely described it's function in layman's (player's) terms, i.e. tonally.

Or would that be "e.g."?

[rabbit]

Thank you, one & all.