Any Love for the Plek Machine?

[tonyp145]

I realize this post will just encourage our robot overlords, but I have to say WOW what a difference! So some of you are aware that I bought this refinished cherry sunburst '58 Gibson L-4C from a guy on Reverb.com and I've put a fair amount of money into this thing. I won't repeat the whole story here (search "Gibson L-4C" and you'll see my other posts), but one of the things I had done was I had my tech refret the guitar because I was getting pretty bad fret buzz out of the box.

In retrospect I wish I had just taken it to Mike Lull first.

About 2 weeks ago I decided I still wasn't satisfied with the guitar. The action was much higher than I prefer it and I was still hearing fret buzz. So I took it to Mike and asked him to Plek it. He ended up having to do a fair amount of remedial fret work first, which I found disappointing (not to mention expensive), but after the Plek machine did its magic he was able to get the action really low.

I picked it up last Saturday and used it in rehearsal Sunday. Such a joy to play. I feel like I have the equivalent of a $6K-$8K custom archtop, maybe more because that 60 year old wood really can't be imitated with modern materials.

I know it's been mentioned on this forum a few times, but not recently, so has anybody else partaken of the magic robot fret leveling machine? (Lull says it's accurate to within .003 of a millimeter -- insane!)

[neatomic]

plek automation, absolutely... but still requires some operator smarts...just like hand fretwork, the plek can be tweaked to the players style and preferences and it's important that repairman offering plek service confers with clients about his style and preferences

would the great jimmy d'aquisto have needed a plek machine..probably not, as his knowledge, skill and hands on approach could equal it's precision plus add a little heart and soul

but where the automated fret leveling really stands out is in regular factory made guitars...these days you can get a squier guitar with an almost perfectly fretted neck...time and time again...

cheers

[docbop]

I've never heard much good to make the cost of Plek job worth it. I can understand builders like Gibson using them to cut production time, but seems like as long as they have been around haven't caught on with the good repair shops. There is a store in WLA that has one and every time I've been there the machine is just sitting. What I hear is a good experienced repair person/luthier with the right tools is better.

I hope some of the luthier types comment like to get their impressions.

[neatomic]

what you have to remember is that all fret leveling is done relative to the bow (trussrod adjustment) of the neck (at that precise moment the work is being done)...once that bow parameter changes..(and it does via string tension, weather/humidity, etc)..then the 100% accuracy of the work is immediately compromised

why its better to at least have a head start, and have the guitar pleked to your actual (preferred) set up

cheers

[Greentone]

I have one Plek'd guitar that I absolutely love. I do agree, however, with the assertion above--i.e., that changes in the bow/relief throw off the Plek results. Plek results are only accurate at that moment. It's up to you to keep things within that tolerance.

[deacon Mark]

I am going to cause controversy but here goes. I think the plek is way over-rated and expensive. I believe I can do as good of job as the plek machine and I am cheaper from the rates I see. I am not sure of the cost but I see prices over $200 to get your frets dressed. This is too much when I can look at your playing. I see how you play and then I can make certain adjustments on how I set your guitar up. The plek does not take into account that you might have an really light touch or heavy handed.

Players who have a light touch and are not aggressive can get away with much lower action in some cases. If you hit the strings hard enough the frets will rattle unless you are set up like Freddy Green. The process of a fret dressing has many things to consider but if you need a complete set up and fret dressing only and strings, for $125 I will get it probably to your liking. Now there are limits because everything is a trade off and compromise to some degree. If you want a powerful sound, with absolutely no fret rattling, then you cannot have super-super low action. If fact you really cannot even have low action if truth be know if that be known.

The quality and condition of frets and fingerboard have much to do with how the job can come out. Sometimes it is a choice between dressing out the frets one last time and trying to make a go of it or fretting the guitar. New frets and a fingerboard that is in good shape with proper radius will make the job easier. I generally error on the side of caution and recommend dressing them out unless they are fretless wonders. It is also much less money and time to do a fret dressing.

Things have to be all correct at the nut. Proper spacing, proper height ( nut) , neck with correct amount of relief. From this point it is all in the frets being level and consistent. Most modern guitars made well should require very little relief. If things are correct I prefer the neck have very little relief and then you the play can set the action at the bridge. Your needs change from time to time and this allows the best I think. Some players need more relief if they are heavy handed so again must take that into consideration.

My take is the plek..................not able to think and it is expensive to have done let alone buy the machine.

[Greentone]

deacon Mark raises very thoughtful points. I bought my Plek'd guitar from a fellow with a lighter touch than me. I was initially surprised by fret slap and thought, "Plek, huh?" However, almost without conscious thought I simply adjusted to the guitar.

Like most forum members, I have quite a few different guitars. Once I have owned them for a couple of months, I find that they become 'family.' These guitars have neck sizes all over the map--e.g., really thin (think Hagstrom, I have two) to really chunky (think my Parts-o-Caster Tele with a one-inch thick neck). Most of the guitars have some neck relief, but my Plek'd guitar is quite flat.

I have played all of my guitars so regularly over the years, that I don't even think about them. If I pick up one of the Hagstroms, my playing just adjusts naturally to it. If I play the big Tele...etc. Now, when I play the Plek'd archtop, no fret slap at all. It is a delightful guitar.

[tonyp145]

Good feedback, interesting. I can certainly see that if someone wasn't a good tech to begin with just putting a guitar on the Plek machine isn't going to help (as much anyway). Mike Lull is one of the best luthiers in the Seattle area, he observed that I play with a light touch, he mentioned needing to file down the grooves in the nut because the strings were too high (the previous tech had fashioned me a new bone nut for the guitar) and he said he would do a full setup on it in addition to the Plek.

When I went to pick it up he told me that the previous tech hadn't glued the frets in at all, he just pushed them in. He said he used so much super glue he started looking to see if it was leaking out someplace else (I'm pretty sure that was meant to be a joke). Anyway, like I said in the original post, there was a substantial amount of remediation that was done before the guitar was put on the machine.

Deacon Mark, I understand what you're saying, but people will counter that the Plek is accurate to within 3 thousandths of a millimeter, no human hand/eye could match that. But I think neatomic's argument is the winner -- all that accuracy goes down the drain as soon as that truss rod shifts. And I get the feeling that happens more frequently in an archtop than it does in, say, a Tele or a Strat. Fortunately Mike says I can bring the guitar back if it later drifts out of spec. Good guy.

[lammie200]

I have had two of my three solid bodies Plek'd and will get the third one done after I receive my new neck. None of my other guitars (archtops and acoustics) need any fret work at all, so my points pertain to my solid bodies.

I understand why some people are opposed to it, but I have had good results thus far. One benefit is that you can have your frets re-profiled to practically anything you want if they are large enough to begin with. Hence, I start with 6100 stainless steel frets. The Plek machine takes them down from .055" to .050". That would be a lot of work for someone to do by hand I am sure. You could even re-profile the radius slightly if you have enough fret height to begin with. All in all, it is one way to get really fine adjustments. I think that it costs $275. Worth it for me.

[skykomishone]

If you have a seriously good luthier that does a seriously good hand job, you'll be very satisfied. There is a lot of science and engineering involved, and it's a job especially well suited to the computer and modern machine capabilities. I've gone both ways. I've had Mike Lull 'fix' problems caused by mediocre work of others, most recently, Today I picked up my ~70 year old L7 that I had the frets 'pleck' dressed while it he had it there to install a Lollar gold foil floater, and I'll tell you what. I can't imagine a better setup, this on my favorite guitar. I wouldn't hesitate to have it done. It's my third guitar to have frets dressed in this manner.

So, moral of my story: If you have a decent luthier that does a great hand job, like I expect Mark does, no problem. If you have a luthier that has a pleck machine and can afford it, it's hard to beat. I could go either way. I'm happy with getting plecked.

[Thumpalumpacus]

deacon Mark raises very thoughtful points. I bought my Plek'd guitar from a fellow with a lighter touch than me. I was initially surprised by fret slap and thought, "Plek, huh?" However, almost without conscious thought I simply adjusted to the guitar.

Like most forum members, I have quite a few different guitars. Once I have owned them for a couple of months, I find that they become 'family.' These guitars have neck sizes all over the map--e.g., really thin (think Hagstrom, I have two) to really chunky (think my Parts-o-Caster Tele with a one-inch thick neck). Most of the guitars have some neck relief, but my Plek'd guitar is quite flat.

I have played all of my guitars so regularly over the years, that I don't even think about them. If I pick up one of the Hagstroms, my playing just adjusts naturally to it. If I play the big Tele...etc. Now, when I play the Plek'd archtop, no fret slap at all. It is a delightful guitar.

Playing a guitar is conversation, not dictation. We cannot tell the instrument what to say -- we tell the instrument how we feel and if we do it right, she sings.

[vejesse]

If the Plek folks are claiming that the frets tops over all the neck are within .003 millimeters that's simply not accurate. This is one ten thousanth of an inch were talking about. I'd say they'd be lucky to get .001" . A new, massive surface grinder with a rigid setup would be hard pressed to get an 18 inch long flat surface flat within .0001". Add the wood, the complete lack of rigidity of the setup, the 3- D lofted surface and the fact that everything changes with tension, weather changes, etc. and were talking about way less precision than that even.

I love the time saving aspect of the PLEK and it's very interesting, but give me a break. The marketing and promotion are over the top.

[lammie200]

I recommend speaking with the operator of the Plek machine, not the marketing people at corporate Plek. The people I take my guitars to won't oversell me on anything. I may be lucky, I guess.

[docbop]

.003 tolerance is important when building jet fighters or space craft, but is meaningless on a guitar. Like everything there are so many factors to consider doing fret work for a person as noted in previous posts, and a machine is programmed to some stereotypical guitarist.

[vinnyv1k]

I am a Gibson boy so I can only speak about them. When they first started pleking around ten years ago they pleked too low and flat. Since 2014 I have noticed the frets to be dead perfect. Nice medium/high with a a absolute perfect crown so it took them a while to master the plek machine but they do have it mastered now. Feeler gauge action if you so desire.

I will I'll still take a fret job by hand over a machine though.

Matt Cushman built me a guitar and his fretwork was the best I have seen. I showed the guitar to Frank Ford and he glared down the neck and said......WOW.

I will say this. Before the plek when you bought a new Gibson the first thing you had to do was get the frets dressed.
That is no longer the case. They play perfect right out of the box. For assembly line made guitars it makes sense.

[lammie200]

...and a machine is programmed to some stereotypical guitarist.

If you have a good operator they can program the machine with any number of a variety of customized specs that the guitarist wants.

Like I said, I get it that some people only want hand work. Personally, I wouldn't discount a Plek machine. I have had nothing but good results.

[LtKojak]

I am going to cause controversy but here goes. I think the plek is way over-rated and expensive. I believe I can do as good of job as the plek machine and I am cheaper from the rates I see. I am not sure of the cost but I see prices over $200 to get your frets dressed. This is too much when I can look at your playing. I see how you play and then I can make certain adjustments on how I set your guitar up. The plek does not take into account that you might have an really light touch or heavy handed.

Players who have a light touch and are not aggressive can get away with much lower action in some cases. If you hit the strings hard enough the frets will rattle unless you are set up like Freddy Green. The process of a fret dressing has many things to consider but if you need a complete set up and fret dressing only and strings, for $125 I will get it probably to your liking. Now there are limits because everything is a trade off and compromise to some degree. If you want a powerful sound, with absolutely no fret rattling, then you cannot have super-super low action. If fact you really cannot even have low action if truth be know if that be known.

The quality and condition of frets and fingerboard have much to do with how the job can come out. Sometimes it is a choice between dressing out the frets one last time and trying to make a go of it or fretting the guitar. New frets and a fingerboard that is in good shape with proper radius will make the job easier. I generally error on the side of caution and recommend dressing them out unless they are fretless wonders. It is also much less money and time to do a fret dressing.

Things have to be all correct at the nut. Proper spacing, proper height ( nut) , neck with correct amount of relief. From this point it is all in the frets being level and consistent. Most modern guitars made well should require very little relief. If things are correct I prefer the neck have very little relief and then you the play can set the action at the bridge. Your needs change from time to time and this allows the best I think. Some players need more relief if they are heavy handed so again must take that into consideration.

My take is the plek..................not able to think and it is expensive to have done let alone buy the machine.

You obviously don't know what the Plek actually does, how you program it and what it can be set to do that's completely impossible for a human being.

Having said that, once you get the neck's reading on the Plek, you need to be able to do two just as important things: 1. to interpret the reading. 2. to tell the machine what to do.

Meaning you need to have at least some experience as a luthier to be able to correctly interpret the reading and have experience with CNC machinery, so you'll be able to tell the machine to execute the desired program (if it's not one of the several presets jobs the machine comes with).

The machine doesn't do the thinking. You do. The machine can not assess the frets not being correctly applied to the fingerboard and rattle. That's YOUR job as far as a Plek operator goes.

Like you still need to be a doctor to interpret what a MRI image is telling you.

I'm pretty sure you can do a good job in the cheap. But, you just can't compete with a correctly-applied Plek program.

For the record, I'm friends with a luthier that the owns a Plek Station in my neck of woods. Once you get the hang of it, you can guarantee a satisfactory outcome every single time.

HTH,

[deacon Mark]

Funny thing about MRI and my brother in law is physician. We never treat MRIs we treat patients. About 40% of lower lumbar MRIs in men over 50 will randomly show herniated disk, but no symptoms and person had no real complaints. Not to argue at all I just found that interesting.

I still think Plek is overpriced for almost all repairmen in business and the cost to have it done not worth it.

[lammie200]

...I still think Plek is overpriced for almost all repairmen in business and the cost to have it done not worth it.

If you can do what my luthier does to stainless steel frets with a Plek machine for $275 and a four day turnaround more power to you.

[bluefonia]

I have a Duesenberg Starplayer guitar, which is born Pleked. The Duesenberg played the best out of the box of any of the 12 guitars I own. (I don't own any boutique handbuid guitars). The nut was cut perfect too and this is done by the Plek too. On the rest of my guitars I have had to make a final setup myself. By trial and error I'm 99% as good as a Plek by now .

Plek is not only about fretdressing, the thing has quite a few other options up the sleve.
Here is what the Plek website says about the Plek machine options:

SOFTWARE ADD-ONS

TemplatesOur software templates make it possible to define the recurring properties of instrument models and also set parameters of the Plek processes to be performed for a given model.

Automated Virtual Fretdress Adjustment (AVFA)One of the core template functionalities is the AVFA - an automated version of the virtual fretdress which can automatically suggest a setting according to operator-defined tolerances. The system then either waits for manual confirmation or can be configured to continue automatically. A major time saver for production.

Board PlaningFingerboard planing can be undertaken based on scan results and required parameters (compound radius, falloff etc).

Fret Slot CuttingFret slot cutting can be specified in terms of width and depth to follow the fretboard radius. The machine can be instructed to perform a "natural binding" by not cutting through the entire board.
Nut Pocket CuttingA "pocket" for the nut can be cut into the fingerboard.

Saddle CuttingThis software add-on makes it possible to cut guitar saddles. String action is defined, and the saddle is placed in a vise during cutting. Options include cutting of the top and/or bottom of the saddle.

Saddle Slot CuttingThis add-on makes it possible to cut a slot into acoustic bridges. The cut is based on the Plek scan, so that the string spacing and the length compensation will perfectly fit the given instruments specs.

Bridge Pinhole MarkingAs with saddle slot cutting, this add-on for acoustic guitars is based on the Plek instrument scan, resulting in perfectly placed pin hole markings.

PairsNut slot cutting for instruments with "paired" strings, e.g. 12-string guitars or mandolins.

[deacon Mark]

If you can do what my luthier does to stainless steel frets with a Plek machine for $275 and a four day turnaround more power to you.

If you pay $275 for your guitar to be Plek more power to you. I would have zero business even if I had a Plek machine that could do what you want in 4 days. But I do not make my living at it either.

[lammie200]

If you pay $275 for your guitar to be Plek more power to you. I would have zero business even if I had a Plek machine that could do what you want in 4 days. But I do not make my living at it either.

I don't know your circumstances, but this is from my luthier that makes a living at it:

Our PLEK pricing starts at around $260 for standard guitar/basses. Feel free to give us a call if you’d like to schedule an appointment!

[deacon Mark]

I am a part time player, repair guitars, and thankfully have another profession. I know of no luthiers in a 100 mile radius that might have a Plek. Maybe in Chicago or St. Louis but all those around here rely on much less. This is not the east or west coast. Gruhn guitars in Nashville do not Plek their guitars or repairs. I know most of the luthiers that made the Chinery Blue guitars. I could be wrong but none Plek guitars. It is not wrong to have them Plek but expensive. I have people bring me guitars to fix worth less than $200 so I work with them because they need repairs.

I do work on guitars worth $$$ but most of the stuff is just Guitars that are no fancy or super special.

[lammie200]

I hear ya. This guy cranks them out. I don't know what his lease/buy options were on the machine, but I am sure that he must have it covered many times over.

I will also add that I have used other repair shops in my area, and the guy with the Plek has much better customer service, and runs a more personable outfit than any of the others by far. I don't think that the machine has anything to do with that, however.

[Ol' Fret]

No and no again - I wouldn't give it house-room!

Never rely on the quality of German junk technology that promises to be more 'accurate' and 'quicker' than fine customized handicraft (PLEK / A+D Gitarrentechnologie GmbH - PLEK: THE ART OF THE FINGERBOARD )! It is not about the production of the latest hi-tech medicine technology or jet fighters.

Ok, the Plek may be better than any careless and unqualified fretting done by hand in some major guitar plants.