The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Posts 1 to 25 of 178
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    I have been playing through my henriksen bud almost exclusively since I got my L5 about a year ago. I got the Bud at the same time and they do very well together so unless I have a gig where I don't have power and use my Cube street ex I have basically been just using the Bud.

    I still play my bass through my Polytone though - I just leave the amp at a rehearsal space where I teach a class and I am still using it once a week at least. However I brought it home tonight just to play with it since I have not used it with my L5 since I got it and I have changed string types and the guitar setup quite a bit since last year so I wanted to try it since I have an important gig coming up.

    Well damn does it sound good. This amp has been through a lot - probably the most offensive thing was a stray cat spraying it outside my old house. The speaker was so awful to smell that I used some cat cleaning spray and it doesn't smell like anything anymore but this amp has seen a lot of not so careful use in the past. I think it gives it character - the sound breaks up ever so slightly, possibly because of the speaker getting wet I don't know. And it is not a pristine sound - there is some very quiet harmonic distortion that was preset ever since I got it years ago (this is the black, 15" speaker minibrute with reverb and the red distortion knob around the volume and bass and treble controls, foam cover - I forget what number Minibrute that makes it) so it is very different than the henriksen, which is super clean and just beautiful sounding. It is like a pretty girl or something who is well put together and the Polytone is the girl you party with who doesn't wear makeup and is a blast to be with.

    So i am wondering, what is it that makes Polytones sound so different and so good for jazz? There are such a large amount of solid state amps but none of them sound quite like a Polytone. I know they have an unconventional setup, like having a 3 ohm speaker or something and a bunch of other things I don't know - I would like to learn though if anyone cares to explain it, or if it is able to be explained.

    And now I am in a quandary...I might have to use the Polytone for this gig coming up. It is a Jim Hall/Bill Evans tribute recital and it is in a really nice small space with great acoustics. The Henriksen would sound good in there, will let me customize the sound more and has a good line out that I can run into my multitrack in addition to micing the speaker which could add some nice clarity. I am recording it so the clean sound of the. Bud is logically going to do better overall...but the L5/Polytone combo has something that the Bud doesn't. It is an awesome amp, don't get me wrong, but I am really going to have to figure this out. In the mean time I hope to learn something about Polytones if there is any info or evidence as to what makes it sound like it does.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    There are some people here who are much more qualified than me to do this - but I'll try to help.

    Polytones do have a unique sound, especially older ones (pre sonic-circuit). As other things in life, they seem to be a "happy accident", since they were not designed for guitar (and only sound good with archtops and semis, to my ears). I've seen it attributed to the power amp chips, but I know people who changed the power amps in their Polys and the sound didn't change. The cab/speaker do play a role, and the speaker is an Eminence OEM (not sure if the impedance matters or not). And, of course, the preamp. I have a Polytone preamp pedal that I use with my digital rig - it gets a lot of the Poly vibe but not all of it. I don't have any impulse responses of Polytone cabs, but I hope to have soon and solve the mistery, I bet just the preamp and the cabs get 99% of the sound.

    Henriksens do sound quite different from Polys, Mambos sound a lot closer but still different (I like the higher fidelity of the Mambos more).

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    Re: the cabs- how many other amps are closed back and stuffed full of house insulation? I've never opened up another closed-back amp or cab, so I have no idea. My RE 12 is ported, my RS 8 is not, my Cube 60 is not. But I would imagine that this is part of the Polytone sound, not just the preamp and power amp section characteristics.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    To be scientific regarding the amp comparison, you really need to have a cat piss on the Bud.

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    Aren't there some open-backed, smaller, Polytones are well? I've read folks dig their sound, too. I'm voting pixie dust.

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    What I wonder is with Fenders everything is known about the old amp and people making clones that sound excellent. Why isn't the same with Polytone? Is it that hard to duplicate an SS circuit aren't the schematics available? The cabinet is easy to copy since so many still around. Or is it more urban legend and other amps can get the sound and more.

  8. #7

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    What I wonder is with Fenders everything is known about the old amp and people making clones that sound excellent. Why isn't the same with Polytone? Is it that hard to duplicate an SS circuit aren't the schematics available? The cabinet is easy to copy since so many still around. Or is it more urban legend and other amps can get the sound and more.
    Certain IC chips? I'm clueless and have no idea.

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    Aren't there some open-backed, smaller, Polytones are well? I've read folks dig their sound, too. I'm voting pixie dust.
    Oh yeah. Itty-Bitty-Open-Back Polytones we got 'em.
    Attached Images Attached Images What is it about Polytone amps?-img_5456-jpg 

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Rio, Your Polytone is Mini Brute IV and it is from late 70s/early 80s. I have similar amp and I love it too. I bet the secret lies in preamp. I once had a Polytone 102 in which I changed the speaker to Eminence Beta 12A. It still sounded Polytone – or maybe even more Polytone!I have understood that the 'warmth' comes from mosfets, not usual transistors. Mosfets are more tube-like. They just have the relation of bass/mids/highs where it should. They are made to sound like Ampeg Geminis, which where accordion amps originally too. (So I have heard.) Maybe we guitarists just have to thank the accordionists for Polytone!

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    I don't know where you getting that from. I own a Polytone minibrute IV and an Ampeg Gemini II and they sound nothing alike. Not even remotely similar.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara
    Re: the cabs- how many other amps are closed back and stuffed full of house insulation? I've never opened up another closed-back amp or cab, so I have no idea. My RE 12 is ported, my RS 8 is not, my Cube 60 is not. But I would imagine that this is part of the Polytone sound, not just the preamp and power amp section characteristics.
    Given that we are talking about the same Cube 60 ( ie the one that came immediately before the 'x' range, it surely is ported. Look closely behind the grille - btm left and btm right.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    There are lots of things that go into a Polytone MiniBrute amp. Cheesy OpAmp chips that aren't too clean/pristine in the preamp section. A comparatively high power solid-state power amp (for a class A/B design that is operating in a small-volume, sealed cabinet (stuffed with fiberglass insulation). High-compliance CTS speakers (early MiniBrutes) or Eminence high-compliance speakers (MiniBrutes after about 1984). Baxandall tone circuitry. Early models had just treble/bass. Later models had treble/mid/bass.

    I like all of them, but my very favorites are the MiniBrutes with just two tone knobs, simple preamp ICs, and CTS speakers. These are mostly the felt covered ones and the early diamond Tolex ones. Then, again, my blue Tolex MiniBrute from the 90s also sounds great.

    They all get a seriously good archtop guitar sound.

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Bebop Tom
    I don't know where you getting that from. I own a Polytone minibrute IV and an Ampeg Gemini II and they sound nothing alike. Not even remotely similar.
    I learned it from here! Now I learned here that internet too has it weaknesses...

    I have searched for a reasonable priced Gemini amp for years but they are practically non exintent here in Finland. So I have never had a opportunity to play it and compare with other amps.

    Only thing I know about Geminis is that they are heavy. Are they? How do their sound differ from f ex Polytones? From Fenders?

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    I agree that the Gemini II and MiniBrute IV sound different. (I used to use the Gemini II--'69 to '71, and I have a MiniBrute IV.) They are both great, classic amplifiers.

    The main thing the amplifiers have in common is Baxandall tone circuitry. I much prefer this to Fender, Marshall, or Vox tone circuitry. You can actually get things to sound reasonably flat at the point where the treble and bass knobs are at mid-detent with a Baxandall circuit.

    Beyond that, the Ampeg has a Jensen speaker in a ported-back cabinet. The MB has a CTS or Eminence speaker in a sealed cabinet. The Ampeg is a tube amp, the Polytone is solid state.

    And, then, there are reverbs. The reverb on the Ampeg is maybe the best, ever. The MiniBrute's reverb is just passable.

    All this said, I prefer the Ampeg amp for use with a solid-body guitar or a semi. For an archtop, I'd rather use the Polytone.

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    Just the right combination of not modern high speed opamps, and form factor.

    only thing is "disagree" with greenetone about is the speaker. I have had a bunch of speakers in them, all with great success. But the originals are very cool.

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for all the replies - very interesting. Regarding the cat piss on the Henriksen, I could do that since I have cats...I moved since the stray cat thing so no cats to spray on it outside. Made me laugh.

    And thank you for the date/Minibrute model info. I knew this at one point in time but I had forgotten and can never keep them straight.

    My first Polytone was a blue, kind of fake leather covered one with a 12 inch speaker. The amp died after I had it for roughly 13 years. I could not figure out how to fix it so I first took out the amp parts and used it as a speaker cabinet. It sounded good and had some Polytone qualities to the sound regardless of which head I would use with it but it was not quite the same of course. I then took the speaker out and put it in a cheap Acoustic B40. I didn't know if it would hurt the amp since the speaker impedance was different. It did work though and it made the amp much louder - it was already pretty loud for a 20 watt amp but now it is very loud and again, it doesn't sound like a Polytone but some of the sound is there and I have an amp that I got for 40 bucks that was just kind of a throwaway that is now something I use quite often for teaching or if I have to leave an amp somewhere sketchy and don't want to leave a nicer one there.

    I am still following the Polytone in a pedal thread and I am ready to throw my money at the maker asap when they are available. I am curious how it will sound with that Acoustic amp since it has a Polytone speaker in there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    I hope i dont offend anyone as i know some of you know loads more about amps than i do, im just a noob really. But here is my take -
    1. Polytone preamps/amps have been mated with modern state of the art Class D power units (some by forum members here) and still sound like polytone amps. A friend of mine cloned the preamp and used a 80W Mosfet power amp and a random speaker but with an exact cabinet replica, it also sounds like a polytone.
    2. The IC in the oem preamps are either RC4739 (14pin dual op amp) or later versions RC4558 (8pin dual op amp), i doubt most of us would be able to tell the sonic difference blindfolded, swapping for various other IC´s will change the sound sligthly more noticable but overall the classic polytone sound remains. Data sheets on theese compared show minor differences and if it was really important the preamp circuit/components could easily be tailored to respond identical to either IC.
    3. The are no transistors in the preamp circuit, the preamp power supply uses two voltage regulators but the audio path is all op amp/IC. No mojo there.
    4. The isolation in the cabs dampen low frequency response, but even un-isolated the iconic sound remains, i build a clone and even openbacked it sounds great, same goes for a ported rear panel. Sure there are audible differences but all within the spectrum of the core polytone sound.
    5. The power amp ic is often mentioned, i doubt that in anyway contributes to the polytone sound, the only attention theese deserve is that for some reason polytone shipped a bunch of amps oem with LM391 rated for 80V and theese proved underpowered which made them unreliable as they would overheat and malfunction, swap theese for a LM391 rated for 100V solves it.
    Please correct me if im wrong or missed something, it is tiring that theese amps are surronded by voodoo mumbo jumbo about mojo IC´s and other un obtainable parts. I decided to clone one and was nearly dismissed when i begun from reading about polytones as if they where drenched in unicorn tears, for whatever reason it matters to me that peolpe will obtain correct info for keeping theese amps alive pre or post purchase. Thanks.
    Edit: I think Jorge is absolutely right, its the cab/preamp, a cab sim with identical impulse response will likely sound like a analogue polytone amp.
    Last edited by jazzmus; 04-15-2017 at 07:12 AM.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Well, I hope to get a Polytone IR soon and solve the mistery

    Jazzmus, I agree with everything you said, kind of what I would've written if I knew more about electronics!

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jazzmus
    ...

    4. The isolation in the cabs dampen low frequency response, but even un-isolated the iconic sound remains, i build a clone and even openbacked it sounds great, same goes for a ported rear panel. Sure there are audible differences but all within the spectrum of the core polytone sound.

    ...
    The fact that there were open-backed Polytones, especially the BabyBrute series, that are much loved and sought after, supports your point here as well. The closed back and stuffing inside wasn't the critical point.

    Do you think the low-ohms (3 or 4) speakers used had any impact at all?

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    Which is the "best" / classic Polytone?

    They always show up locally and I've been tempted but I've always been shy since I'm not familiar with them and there are several series with different numbers. E.g. Mini, baby studio series and within mini several ones.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    The fact that there were open-backed Polytones, especially the BabyBrute series, that are much loved and sought after, supports your point here as well. The closed back and stuffing inside wasn't the critical point.

    Do you think the low-ohms (3 or 4) speakers used had any impact at all?
    Yes and no, the power amps in original poly´s were designed for the low impedance speakers, so together they perform as intended. With a capable power amp and 8ohm speaker i dont believe the would be any audible difference if the speaker frequency response + amplifier output gain + cab size are a close match.

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    Well, the tone is definitely in the preamp.

    All you have to do is record the main out, and it definitely sounds like a polytone.

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    I have a preamp pedal, and while it sounds close there's still something missing from a Polytone... I don't feel that with a Barb EQ and a Fender IR, it sounds very close to a Twin Reverb.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    hmmm, i remember many years ago after switching from Polytones (i frequently played one or two Mini Brutes) to Mesa Boogie Mark III's i couldn't go back anymore because i missed dynamic response when playing the Polytones. But i guess i'm not qualified to judge as i'm no fan of them anymore.

  26. #25

    User Info Menu