-
Half contemplating an all-acoustic 17" or even 18" archtop. The Wu would look good, but would probably need some fretwork. There would be no pickup, wiring, pots, etc, to worry about. But there is the question of tuning the top. I haven't really read comments about Mr Wu's ability to carve the tone of an instrument. But the price would be reachable.
Elferink, on the other hand, would supply a beautiful instrument requiring no extra work, which would be carved to my liking - but at least three times the price of the Wu. That would be a big stretch for me, and I'd have to sell a few things.
Then there are questions about size and playability. I want a big resonant sound, hence the contemplation of 18", though 17" might suffice. But I don't want a Freddie Green rhythm machine, rather something I can play the William Bay repertoire I've been exploring lately, modern plectrum style, with good range of dynamics and tone. And all that with a medium, not high, action.
Thoughts?
-
04-04-2017 03:23 PM
-
I may be over stepping here, but if you're looking for a very specific sound perhaps it's best if you auditioned the guitar you're looking for instead of ordering it. I find players who order a guitar with very particular features often end up disappointed and regretful (mostly due to the expense and the time waiting). I think it's better to order a custom guitar when you absolutely love the builder's style and trust them to make you a quality instrument. You'll enjoy it for those merits. I'm not saying it's impossible for a builder to get close to a sound or vibe you're after, but there is a negative correlation between the level of specificity and the outcome of the guitar being to your liking.
-
Sure, I understand that, erm, Big Toe...Elferink guitars sound great, but I have not heard a completely acoustic instrument from him. It would be something of a gamble.
-
Elfrink is just one easyjet ticket from Edinburgh, for underneath a 100 pounds you could be back & forth
-
Rob, your playing deserves a great guitar. I'm sure Elferink could build you one but for no more money, and probably less, you should be able to find a really fine vintage archtop. The used market is significantly depressed right now and likely to stay that way for some time. There are some great instruments available --- even here in Toronto --- and if you can't find the right instrument locally or in Europe there are reputable dealers in North America who will ship on approval and/or arrange Skype auditions and answer all your questions. Most have informative websites. Apart from the price and wait-time considerations, great older instruments are played in (not played out!) and were purpose-built for the music you want to play. And you know just what you are getting, which can never be the case with a commissioned instrument even from a talented and experienced builder. If you are willing to overlook minor cosmetic blemishes and wear (which are important to collectors but not to players) you can get a lot of instrument for relatively reasonable money. Don't think of it as an investment though, there is no reason to anticipate a rapid recovery in prices. It is a buyer's market!
-
And to add some specifics:
You ask about 17" vs 18" --- 18" is a BIG guitar (I have two of them) and can be uncomfortable to play unless you are fairly tall and have proportionately long arms. I don't think you could play most 18" guitars using the stance seen in your archtop videos. They also do not respond as quickly as smaller-bodied guitars.
You should also be thinking about whether you want the mellow, resonant tone of the older style of archtops (think prewar Epiphones or 1940s-50s acoustic L5s for example) or the brighter, crisper (closer to flattop) tone of the more modern Benedetto-style guitars favoured by many current luthiers who have read Benedetto's book or watched his video. They are remarkably different sounds. (The new Parkers seem to carry the evolution a step further still.) One may be more to your taste than the other. Elferink of course specializes in attempting to reproduce the older sound (as does Collings in the US) but as I suggested in my earlier post, great examples of the originals are available at favourable prices just now.
Other differences to consider, which overlap with the above, are lightly built vs more heavily built instruments, bracing style (hence voicing), and cutaway or not (ease of access to upper frets vs more pronounced bass in my experience), as well as scale length.
Good luck in your quest! (Although I must also say that the tone you have been coaxing out of your pressed-top D'Aquisto, at least as it sounds in the recordings, is quite phenomenal.)
-
Excellent comments, pc. The sound I'm getting with the pressed-top Aria-made D'Aquisto records really well, I'm very impressed with it. But my students playing cheap flat tops easily drown me out. I think it's a great guitar for the purposes of the videos I make, but I would like a bit more dynamic range when I'm not making recordings.
It's a confusing state of affairs, not having access to great vintage archtops or Benedettos and the like, and I have my own way of playing, so it's hard to discern what I would sound like on instruments played by others.
I'm happy to continue playing my D'Aquisto for the videos and recordings, but still yearn for a more dynamic acoustic instrument.
-
Are the prices listed on Elfrink's website accurate? If so they are reasonable. I suggest you talk to Dutchbopper as he has played most of the models on his website. Myself, I'd go the custom route. I have lived in parts of the country (USA) for most of my life where premium guitars are just not available to play so I have had to take some risks. If you communicate with the builder in this case Elfrink I suspect he could build you something that your ears want to hear.
Last edited by rob taft; 04-04-2017 at 07:23 PM.
-
I'd recommend that you pick up a pre-War (2) L7, quite honestly. For straight out acoustic tone , go for the one's that are no cutaway, x-braced. Can be found much CHEAPER than a L5. Basically an L5 without the bling.
Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I like my 18" Wu, damn fine, but it's not on par with the old Gibsons I've played (*ducks for cover from the "Chinese have surpassed the Gibby" crowd*) .
If money is an absolute limiting factor, I will say for the money spent on a Wu, you'll not get a better guitar for that amount. Even factoring in re-working the frets.
-
Having just barely gotten a guitar thru Customs (from Japan) recently I'd say buy locally - even if it means making a long road trip INSIDE YOUR COUNTRY. Older arch tops like an older L-7 will deliver plenty of volume and tone. And unless you have the stature of a big basketball player an 18 inch guitar is a lot of box to wrap yourself around...
Importing a guitar into your country could leave you short your money and SOL. Mr. Wu makes great guitars, but remember he lives out in the country in China and has no idea who these people you mentioned are or is familiar with the requisite carving he'd have to do for you to achieve it... Stick with something vintage in your country that you can play and decide "yeah this is it". Take the wife, make a weekend of it if necessary - the more I read guys looking for that dream tone, the more convinced that this is the best advice one can give - go play it yourself, don't take words you see written here or YouTube videos as part of your decision making process. This is a big ticket item, spend wisely, try it before you buy it.
BigLast edited by BigMikeinNJ; 04-04-2017 at 06:30 PM.
-
I m not familiar with WUs guitars, but i have an Elferink Tonemaster 16' model, and the playability is stellar. It 's more vibrant and sensitive than my Taylor acoustics, it almost plays itself. But as others have mentioned, on this level of instruments it 's always a good idea to play before you buy if possible, specially if you 're set in what you want out of the instrument
-
Lots of great comments from everyone. Many thanks for making the effort, it is appreciated. Much to think about.
-
I also own a Tonemaster 16.5" x 3" body size, w/ floating Kent Armstrong p/up. Incredible value, as well as a great guitar both acoustically and plugged in. I was looking for that older Gibson L-5C Johnny Smith type of tone/construction. The only issue I had was communicating the correct neck specs. And everything turned out fine since it came larger than asked for, and just had it reshaped locally by luthier.
I have played many high end boutique archtops, and it definitely holds its own with guitars 2-4X's the price. No hesitation dealing with Frans Elferink AAA+++ There are some import fees but not too bad like under $200.
-
Good to know. Thanks.
-
Oh, by the way, I am six foot three inches tall, with long arms and large hands. I'm sure I could cope with an 18" guitar, especially as I once played theorbo, with a string length of 86cms...
That said, 17" is probably enough.
-
I would not be put off by an 18" based on the notion they are just too big. I have an 18" and a 17" and while different the 18" with subtle positioning adjustment is just as comfortable as the 17". I am of average height/weight/hand size for a 60 year old and while I do have a well developed "uni-ab/mono-ab" stomach it in no way determines my comfort with either a 18" or 17" guitar. They seem equally comfortable to me.
My 18" acoustic carved top archtop is a 1951 and has a 1951 style neck- C shaped and very full in the hand that tonally rewards very precise left hand technique. My 17" laminated top/electric archtop is a 2013 and has a more contemporary thinner neck more D shaped and very smooth/fast. I find vertical movement on the fretboard more comfortable on the 51' neck and horizontal movement more comfortable on the 2013' neck.
You mentioned you had a particular style of playing in mind I would suggest that you be very cautious with vintage guitars given they may have been designed with a very different playing style in mind and if you are going down the modern or custom route you be very clear on what you think the intersection of guitar design and the playing style you want to pursue looks like
Will
Having watched many of your vids I believe you could make a broomstick neck attached to a Jaffa cake box body with fishing line strings sound engaging
))
-
Rob, how about dropping in on Rob Aylward? http://www.rjaylwardguitars.co.uk/contact/ . He is in Scotland.
-
Between Elferink and Wu, I'd go for an Elferink at 3X the price of a Wu.
I see an Excalibur 18 starts at €3300.
-
I have an 18 inch Elferink Excalibur for pics in the for sale section. It is a beautiful near mint 12 years old.
-
Like many others I really like my Wu. It was great to have one made with everything I wanted and its fun to play. You will need to have it set up and I still need to get my frets done. For me the Wu was purely an indulgence. There is no way you will be able to judge the sound of a Wu until you get it. If you're looking for a primary player I suspect you'd be better off auditioning guitars that you can have access to. Good luck!
-
for a custom ordered acoustic archtop my preference would be Trenier (if I had the money...)
-
Another European builder that is very affordable is Jaen in Spain, Perfection in my opinion...
Jaen
-
elferink is in another category..super knowledgeable guy...a real student of all things guitar...wrote a column for the (now dormant) prepared guitar site for quite some time...
he will understand your points of reference as a player, historian & luthier!...
check this q&a... with extensive pics & vids...and click for more of his posts from there..they are all good!
PREPARED GUITAR: Frans Elferink 13 Questions
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 04-04-2017 at 11:49 PM.
-
Off topic, but I really liked your "Webern and Cage for Acoustic Archtop Guitar" -piece/video on ArchtopGuitar.net. Like you mentioned on the preface, stylistically that material really works with an acoustic guitar! Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Slightly on topic: As a purely (for now) solid body guitar player Elferink's Tonemaster gives me serious GAS. There is something stylistically very cool there. Plus the price for a custom instrument can't really be beat. Maybe some day when I know more about what I want from an archtop (soundwise) and what fits me...
-
Breakfast time here in Edinburgh. It's good to wake up to so many caring, positive comments. Great forum. I'll follow up all the links. Much obliged.
Reply With Quote
Questions for you Barry Harris disciples /...
Today, 07:49 AM in Improvisation