Gibson Crimson shop closed

[Greentone]

My interest is piqued. Has the Chinese archtop industry matured to the point that there is stuff coming out as good as Gibson, etc? (I certainly realize that there are individual luthiers in China building excellent, top-grade guitars. But, are there production instruments that "have arrived?")

I have played some fascinatingly good "The Loar" and Eastman guitars over the last ten years. The better examples are going to be at home on anyone's bandstand. These are solid, player-grade instruments--by "player" I mean pro-player.

However, would I have, in the last ten years, been likely to shop for an Eastman or Loar when I would be out looking for a Gibson L-5, Guild Benedetto Johnny Smith, Heritage Golden Eagle, etc?

I have been a consumer of Japanese guitars for over 50 years. Long ago, I realized that not all of the top-line Japanese instruments were reaching the US. If you shopped in Tokyo you could find guitars that were a cut above and reserved for the home market. Does anyone know, is there any similar phenomenon going on in China today?

GT

[skiboyny]

Pizza dough has sugar, salt, flour and water. Yet each maker is able to make a different tasting crust. It almost takes on the personality of the maker. I don't know how to build a guitar. I don't know what it is that Gibson does that makes the personality of a Gibson. I could give you an exact recipe for pizza dough and you could make it and I guarantee it wouldn't be anything like the dough I make. If I had to guess I would say that Gibson probably does a shoddy job of bracing, and building as compared to the current lutihers. They no doubt cut every corner that can be cut, but in the end to my ears they all sound like Gibson. Not exactly, some are duds some are incredible, but they all have the Gibson personality. I envy you in many respects, you hear no difference. I do, and proving that would be as difficult as proving a bad back. What ever guitar you choose if it inspires you to play you have made the right choice. "And the beat goes on"

You completely failed to support your "no other guitar sounds like a Gibson" hypothesis with anything credible, so I'll ask again.

What proprietary materials and/or technologies does Gibson posses that results in them producing a guitar that, per your claims, produces a mechanical tone 'unlike any other'?

[pilotony]

Back at you Vinny. Nothing you wrote has bored me. I am glad you let us know the news. It seems that the Gibson bashers come out of the woodwork whenever there is an opportunity. And you know my position on that....

Nice work Swinger.

[vinnyv1k]

So ScoopThemids please tell me what Chinese guitar manufacturer makes a guitar that sounds exactly like a Gibson L5. I will be eternally grateful ! You will save me a ton of scratch. In fact please inform me about that Chinese model and I will buy you the Chinese guitar of your choice delivered to your door at no cost to you. That is my promise to you.

[Ren]

So ScoopThemids please tell me what Chinese guitar manufacturer makes a guitar that sounds exactly like a Gibson L5. I will be eternally grateful ! You will save me a ton of scratch. In fact please inform me about that Chinese model and I will buy you the Chinese guitar of your choice delivered to your door at no cost to you. That is my promise to you.

Send it UPS.

[Stringswinger]

I had to change my avatar in response to the anti-Gibson sentiment that I have read in this thread.

IMO, Gibson makes the best electric archtops in the world and have since they started making them. Just like Harley-Davidson makes the finest motorcycles in the world and have since they started making them.

And if you have to ask why in both cases, you would not understand.

[lawson-stone]

With all due respect, your own recording on the L-5 copies thread and people's comments support the claim that it is tough to detect just the Gibson brand blindly. This of course does not mean that Gibson=bad, but I think many people agree Gibson=expensive. Nothing problematic about trying to get that sound (or close enough to it) by paying thousands of dollars less (except for the cognitive dissonance of SOME Gibson owners :-)) Also no problem with people paying thousands more to see and touch and feel the beautiful art object they are playing (blind tests are contrived and forced in a way to determine psychoacoustic factors).

I'm not so sure, mainly because YouTube's compression of audio tends to push lots of sounds that are in the same general family into a similar sounding range. But sure, if in the end, the sound is the only thing that matters, not the comfort and ease of operation, not the underlying quality, the long-lasting beauty and durability, etc. If all you want is sound measured at stock automobile AM radio audio standards or worse, then I guess they sound similar. I know as I played for those recordings, I sure heard much larger differences in sound than the final result showed. But even if the two copies are "almost" as good, we are still talkinga bout someone who summits Mt. Everest and someone else who gets 80% up and says "Yeah, that's just as good."

Nope, it's not. Some people care about the last few thousand feet of altitude, and some care about the final 10% or whatever that sits between the Gibson and the Epiphone Elitist. It's a high-altitude difference, and up there above the treeline, small differences matter a lot.

Whoa I think my metaphor just got out of control!

[lawson-stone]

With all due respect, your own recording on the L-5 copies thread and people's comments support the claim that it is tough to detect just the Gibson brand blindly. This of course does not mean that Gibson=bad, but I think many people agree Gibson=expensive. Nothing problematic about trying to get that sound (or close enough to it) by paying thousands of dollars less (except for the cognitive dissonance of SOME Gibson owners :-)) Also no problem with people paying thousands more to see and touch and feel the beautiful art object they are playing (blind tests are contrived and forced in a way to determine psychoacoustic factors).

I also forgot to say, yeah, I was a little bit busted by my own clip there. Gotta give you credit for making a pretty good point. I do think you're possibly unjust in your opinion of Gibson owners as basically trying to validate their own purchases. Maybe some are like that, I know I'm not, and I didn't spend on my L5ces a geometrically greater amount that I spent on the Aria or the Epiphone. In fact, my 4 Gibsons were each purchased at a far lower price that what most people claim you'd have to pay for a Gibson.

[WilliamScott]

I've been through a large number of archtops. Many brands and models. L5's, 175s, Tals, etc. Gibson, Eastman, Heritage, custom luthiers, lawsuits, etc. And right now I have 5 nice archtops. All that time that I've been going through guitars, I've been looking for the Gibson sound that is in my head. I get it with the Bozeman L-7C I currently have and it is the one I play most of the time. I'm an old guy and I've come to the conclusion that "only a Gibson is good enough". But the one that is the most Gibson-like for me is not from the Crimson Custom Shop. Unfortunately, I don't think you can get a Bozeman L7 anymore, either. Every individual instrument is different, but to my mind, only Gibson really has the Gibson sound... And feel, which is just as much a part of it. So it will be sad if they don't make them anymore. Doesn't mean they've disappeared from the universe, though. You can still get a pre-war Martin, too. Maybe stockpiling isn't a bad idea, if you've got the dosh.

[medblues]

I also forgot to say, yeah, I was a little bit busted by my own clip there. Gotta give you credit for making a pretty good point. I do think you're possibly unjust in your opinion of Gibson owners as basically trying to validate their own purchases. Maybe some are like that, I know I'm not, and I didn't spend on my L5ces a geometrically greater amount that I spent on the Aria or the Epiphone. In fact, my 4 Gibsons were each purchased at a far lower price that what most people claim you'd have to pay for a Gibson.

I think many Gibson owners are not categorically denying psychoacoustics effects, I know that (and stated as such) you and many of them (like our 2b) purchase them for pretty decent prices. I still believe that you could be deceived easily (without the help of compressed audio) if you were blindfolded and then you were handed an inferior Gibson (folks here say they exist) and a superior Aria or Ibanez (also stated they exist by experts here) with the same strings and pickups.

The percentage arguments and the Everest analogy are in my humble opinion not really equivalent, both are by definition quantifications whereas tone judgments are not- hence the utility of blinding and placebo controls. I have nothing against Gibson, I would make similar claims about a genuine vintage Fender Deluxe Reverb versus for instance a Carr Rambler (USA made, as expensive if not more expensive than the Fender) in a blinded test. A corporate brand does not equal a magical recipe for sound.

This is not about Chinese-Korean-Japanese made gear either. Elsewhere in the forum, I have read some Gibson fans claim that guitars made in the Kalamazoo Heritage plant by hand by former Gibson artisans are also different or discernible in sound from Gibson guitars made probably by the same folks using the same wood and tools ! Accepting that without some convincing evidence is very difficult for me.

[Alter]

no other guitar sounds like a Gibson

i would agree with that, and i consider it to be normal, as i have found it to be true with most guitar (and amp) brands. Fenders have their sound, most super strat and custom builders each have their sound, acoustic and archtop luthiers too, etc. It's just that the big guys (that would be mainly fender and gibson, ) have the advantage of having most of the music of the previous century recorded with their instruments, so they kind of "define" the guitar sound in our heads. Also, being huge companies, they can employ very talented people, have the most building experience, player feedback etc. I mean, it's REALLY difficult to match the quality of a good gibson, fender, martin, taylor etc. guitar for what they do..

[goldenwave77]

The thing about perceived "brand value" is that over time, non-existent "differences" do tend to get exposed for what they are, namely, the Emperor's Clothes.

Someone cited the e.g. of Grey Poupon mustard earlier. This was a U.S. phenomenon: In France, the French would laugh at any Grey Poupon mustard user, as well they should. Mustard is a well-known, common, inexpensive and key ingredient in much French cooking. Mustard is basically ground mustard seed, vinegar, salt, some spices, and some white wine, for Dijon style mustard. Cheap and plentiful, and something that has been used for centuries. Since the 80's U.S. heyday of Grey Poupon, there are now supermarket brands of Dijon-style mustard, as well as imported French cooperative products (e.g. Temeraire) that are good, and less expensive. I think Grey Poupon is no longer the high flyer it once was. The same thing is true with the Cuisinart food processor. (BTW I like CHEAP food flavorings...if it is plentiful, you have a better chance of getting the real thing, and not some ersatz, artificial substitute...honey, and citrus are usually safe , but start getting into vanilla and nut flavorings, and watch out....you're likely to get something phony and unconvincing.)

Once upon a time Coors beers was regarded as something exotic, back in the days when it was distributed in only 12 states back in the mid-70's...hard to believe today, given its generally, weak and characterless nature.)

I know someone who works in the branded liquor business. The dirty secret about some "boutique" liquors is that they are re-branded, re-bottled, generic liquor from some national distillers, that are supported by heavy ad campaigns. They technically are "hand bottled" just like some specialty waters, I suspect, are bottled tap water. The same phenomenon occurs with some "craft beer" makers, some of which are literally made in the corner of national brand breweries. There is heavy "lifestyle" aura surrounding liquors, and for the life of me I will never understand why people buy pseudo-products like Smirnoff vodka, when, for the same price they can get the real deal--authentic Polish vodkas distllled from Danofsky rye: After all, the Poles invented vodka, and for 500 years, Polish vodka has been good.

Someone earlier mentioned the demise of the Epiphone guitar brand, and this is a sad and bitter story. I went to HS with a girl who is related to the Stathopoulous family, and there is bad feeling, even to this day, over what happened to the guitars, and its fire-sale purchase by Gibson back in the early 60's. But, the brand had fallen into decline, and makers like Gibson came along with the 175 and the 335 model, which were new, and very good products.

There is an "installed base" issue with Gibsons. By this, I mean that some brands become dominant in the marketplace because they get well known, and other less supported brands don't establish the user base, and servicing base, to compete. This is kind of true with Fender amps which became the de facto standard, though many old jazzers preferred Ampegs. AT some pt. it CAN become self-fulfilling prophecy. I like Jim Hall's '50's sound but not his Sadowsky sound. I don't like Metheny's sound at all, because of its over-processed nature, and guitarists surely are a conservative bunch for all their cries of individuality.

I still pine for old time Coca Cola, in that green bottle, with its natural sugar flavoring and the bite, that brought tears to your eyes, when you downed a whole 7 oz. bottle in one swig on a hot day. Better yet, if it was fished out of a red cooler in the Carolinas in a gas station with a larger than life-sized cardboard cutout of Richard Petty, one of the South's true sports heros, looking over you.

The Porsche is still a classic sports car design, though a Corvette does most of the same things at about 1/3 the price. I would argue that the Corvette is a classic design as well.

Nobody pays list price for Gibsons, and they still maintain their resale value, to a more marked degree, and there is still, IMO, something "under the hood" that makes them sound different than their competitors, incl. Heritage. (I suspect when Heritage was set up originally, there was a modus vivendi worked out with the Kalamzoo-Heritage people, that allowed both companies to survive. A Heritage 575 is not quite a 175, and a Super Eagle, in not quite a Super 400. They are both good, but different.)

[lawson-stone]

...
I still pine for old time Coca Cola, in that green bottle, with its natural sugar flavoring and the bite, that brought tears to your eyes, when you downed a whole 7 oz. bottle in one swig on a hot day. Better yet, if it was fished out of a red cooler in the Carolinas in a gas station with a larger than life-sized cardboard cutout of Richard Petty, one of the South's true sports heros, looking over you.

I remember those bottles, and when they sold at the local barbershop for US$0.06 per bottle.

[citizenk74]

Does whether or not it sounds exactly like an L5 hinge on whether or not you say so?
Because that is an inherently non-credible process.

If anyone on this planet, let alone this excellent and generally collegial forum, knows what an L-5CES should sound like, it's Vinny. End of story.

[rio]

I believe that the capability to have a Chinese L5 copy is there, but there isn't one. It would be a simple argument to win if you would just post the example, even just the name of the guitar if you don't have a clip. There isn't one though. A blind audio test would not help because I think a vast minority of people are able to pinpoint the L5 sound - different players, strings, picks, different years...there are too many variables. Even in the 70's with the lawsuit guitars there wasn't a clear, true ripoff of the L5, presumably because it would have been too expensive to make back then which is why the copies were laminates. Good instruments (I love the lawsuit 175 I have) and I think that some came very close (again, 175) but there were no actual carved top copies that nailed it. They could definitely do that now - Chinese instruments are very good. If Eastman had copied Gibson schematics instead of Benedetto then I believe they would have an L5 copy that was very convincing. But the whole argument is "bullshit" because there isn't one - it doesn't exist. Right now I like my Eastman more than my L5. It is easier to play. But I still put the time in on the L5 because that is the sound I want and if some magical copy came along I would be the first to buy one - I am not a brand loyalist but I know what sound I like and so do many other people here.

I just don't get the argument really. It is all smoke blowing out of various body parts until there is a concrete example to name rather than just arguing that the capability is there.


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[rlrhett]

Also, I'd like to add that I really have no desire to make this thread nasty or personal, even though some people seem to be trying to bait me into that. I do enjoy discussing how logic applies to guitars and certain beliefs about guitars and some guitar brands .

I agree with your position vis-a-vis Gibson 100%. I suppose it is possible that only a Gibson feels like a Gibson, but to me that is like saying that an F150 has a "feel" that a Silverado can't match. (Near identical trucks from Ford and Chevy, for those of you on the other side of the pond who maybe don't know. The discussion of the relative merits might get you shot in certain communities here in the US).

That said, I think people are responding to your stridency and aggression. Perhaps you don't notice the tone you are striking. If you really have no interest in making this thread nasty or personal, I can only suggest that you read over your posts and try to be open to the suggestion that your tone is overly bombastic. After all, we are strangers who don't know you. You can always start a new thread specifically to debate whether Gibson has any secret sauce, or whether it is all psychoacoustics. As the OP I think we can all agree that you get to set the tone and invite others to debate you.

[Longways to Go]

I am afraid that, to me, Gibson _is_ the custom shop. "Only a Gibson [Crimson Custom Shop] is Good Enough," anymore. Everything else is pretty much just CNC routed Les Pauls, as far as I can tell. Meh, not interested. The Custom Shop instruments, OTOH, are _still_ GIBSON. When the custom shop closes, Gibson closes, for my purposes.

It'd be like Five Guys saying, "we aren't gonna make any burgers or fries, but we'll still sell you a soda."

I'm a big Bozeman Montana Flattop fan myself !!

[rio]

How are we supposed to provide credible support for something as subjective as how a guitar sounds to us?

No, we can't determine with 100% accuracy which recording is a Gibson on little computer speakers or even on a top rated audiophile system

But we know how the guitar feels in our hands and sounds to us through our favorite amps in a quiet room or in a band ... and that's all that really counts. ... and its our money anyways

And, yes, there are some impressive Chinese and other Asian archtops that can be had for a lot less money

Someday I'll get me a Mr. Wu ....

But using your logic .. no one should ever buy a top level Benedetto, Trenier, Buscarino, Monteleone, or Manzer either .... they can cost you much more than a Gibson

That's a very good point. I know that if I were blindfolded and actually played three guitars, hell make it ten, if one of them were my L5 I would know which one it is. I'd venture to say that even if there were another L5, maybe from a year further off than '70, I would still know which one is mine. But even without one being mine if t were just some random L5 and 9 other guitars I would still know which one is the L5 - nothing else feels like it and to put the comparison further out let me set up 10 guitars including mine and the most L5 like guitars you can get and even though I would recognize the feel being similar since I do my own guitar setups I would still get money that I could tell which one is the real one. It would be interesting to do a blindfold listening test but I would not be as confident since listening to other players play with different picks and strings and pick attacks and all that is just not realistic.


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[rio]

There are a shit-ton of luthiers in China who are in no way whatsoever 'less skilled' than what Gibson employs in their custom shop. Hell, you can contact Yunzhi and tell them you want a 100% (down to the smallest detail) L5 reproduction and they'll definitely make one... and it will cost a fraction of what a Gibson does and not be even slightly inferior. A really high spec one-off will cost more than their less expensive standardized offerings but they're not even the only larger maker capable of doing it. Once you get into the smaller lutherie shops, you can have whatever you want, at whatever spec you want for a ton less than what its nearest American counterpart would cost.




If what people claimed about Gibson L5's were credible, a blind test would demonstrate that.
If whatever magical tone a Gibson L5 offers is rendered moot by the pick or the strings, then you're buying magic beans when you buy an L5, so you might want to clarify your position a bit.

You are still talking about a theoretical, imaginary guitar that doesn't exist. There are many great luthiers in China, yes, but as far as I (and I am guessing YOU) know there is no guitar that we can use as an example. I know it is hard to be wrong but try to take it gracefully. Your points aren't bad but you just don't have any evidence.


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[bgillon]

I have been reading this forum for awhile without posting. Most everyone here knows a lot about this field and these instruments and I have been reading and trying to learn.

This thread is very much unlike the others I have read -- tone-wise, that is. I generally admire the tone in this forum.

I've never played an L-5. Too expensive for me to even touch. I just purchased an Eastman 605. Still, I do know, Scoop, that your tone in these posts is substantially different than the normal tone in this forum, at least the threads I have followed.

I would also bet that you and I are not the only ones here who have read Nicholas Capaldi.

[rio]

Your problem is that you don't know what you don't know.
You're utterly clueless to the huge swathes of higher end Chinese made guitars that exist the world over (Europeans seem to love them) and support everything I'm saying.

What it boils down to 'evidence'- demanding I prove the negative?

OK, lets cement the goalposts as to what would constitute valid 'evidence' per your own standards, that you cannot reliably distinguish a Chinese made replica of an L5 from a Gibson L5.

Blind sound clips and the power of mean chance expectation should sort that out nicely. Guesswork ensures you will get some correct but if the narrative is credible, you should certainlly get most all right.

Now, is this the part where you argue against science itself and claim that a blind test is all wrong to establish efficacy? Or do we go into the old standards like "well, see, uh, youtube audio compression...", etc?

Are you an 'absurd variable control' guy? That obviously, anyone with good ears can hear a Gibson L5 over that other Chinese junk but if we're to actually test it, well then, "uh... well see, then the pick plays a big role in it... and we have to normalize the runout on all the strings to the nearest .00001... and, uh, we need to make sure the moon phase is right", etc, etc, etc?

Or are you a true believer and willing to give it a go and if so, what would it mean to your beliefs if you failed?

It's not my first rodeo in this discussion. The terminus with the believers is usually about the same.
Here we are. You want evidence that 'proprietary brand tone' is mythological and that the Chinese are capable of producing an instrument that demonstrates that relative to a Gibson L5, we can evidence that quite easily.

"Science itself"? You are missing the big point here that you are assuming that these guitars that sound just like an L5, were made in China and are somehow plentiful enough that they are being played in Europe and, oh by the way that is why no one here has heard them, and that there is no evidence that proves you to be correct. Lots of words could be replaced even by a non direct experience "my friend had this ______ fill in the blank and it sounded just like an L5" or of course direct experience but you have neither. You don't have any empirical information and you are arguing your thoughts as if they somehow have more weight than anyone else's here when you have absolutely no compelling evidence of any kind to make your opinion any more valid than even the staunchest Gibson supporter who believes that there is magic powder from
Orville's ground up bones in the finish. And you are also going after the wrong person because I think your points are valid - I do think that a copy could be made that might sound like an L5. But there isn't one that I have heard about, anyone else here has heard about or any of the large number of musicians that I know have heard about. I am not the one trying to convince a forum of guitarists that my opinion is somehow more valid than anyone else's though so I don't need to bring evidence to support what I am saying.

I also don't think there is anything scientific about proving your point through a listening test but I have already mentioned why but you have decided to mock "YouTube compression" instead of the actual relevant reasons that a listening test would not really work. Too many variables - believe me, I am fascinated to hear side by side comparisons of guitars. But I don't build my opinions about the worth of entire brands and models on those examples of just one guitar vs. another. Like someone else said here, we think we know what a Gibson sounds like because there is so much in the jazz guitar library recorded on Gibsons. But one guitar still doesn't sound like another whether it be strings, picks, playing differences, differences in construction or just different players.

I am just very curious now - if you had to sum up your point, what is it exactly? Do you just really want people to know that Gibson's aren't magic and any guitar can sound l is a Gibson? Do you want to convince people that there are modern Chinese guitars out in the wild that sound and feel just like an L5 because you have invested so much effort into posting about it at this point? Just here for the ride and being reactive? You are clearly passionate about something but I'm not sure what it is.


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[jads57]

All I know is that the recent Gibson Archtops sound GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!! Hats off to the people (Luthiers) building wonderful sounding Gibsons.

[Jabberwocky]

In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.

Yogi Berra

[Thumpalumpacus]

There is a lengthy interview with one of the participants in that test online. She explains that the test wasn't for them to pick out the old violins from the modern. Instead they where asked which violins they would prefer to gig.

So in guitar terms it means that they prefered to gig a modern custom shop tele that was newly set up instead of a 50s tele that hadn't had a set up. (They where not allowed to adjust the strads before the test). Not very surprising imo.

And even without considering the setup issues choosing a modern fender over a 50s one doesn't have to be surprising.

There was a follow-up test which confirmed the original findings, that they couldn't establish a preference over older vs newer violins.

To the point of my post: could you tell the difference between a 59 and a 99 ES-175, for example? Because that is what I was replying to. Could you tell the difference between a Gibby and Epi 175 on a recording? How many of the cognoscenti thought Jimmy Page played a Les Paul on Zeppelin I?

It cracks me up, how many guitarists will type reams online about how tone is in the fingers, and at the same time exalt gear based on name brand alone -- not saying you're one of those, just using your post to make this point.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Gibson sounds like Gibson. I don't think it's special skills or materials, it might even be quite the opposite. The other builders can build a guitar that sounds great, some might even think better but none sound like a Gibson. It's possible that your ear cannot discern different sounds closely. If it could you would whole heatedly agree that Gibson has a sound of it's own. You can argue the other merits of the other builders if you wish, and to that end you might have a great argument. But as far as sound goes Gibson sounds like Gibson and no others sound quite like it.

Define that sound, in physical terms, rather than appealing to the non-falsifiable ("it's there, you just can't hear it"). What frequencies are accentuated? Which are less-present? Is this sound louder, more trebly, bassier, quieter?

"Gibson sounds like Gibson" is a meaningless tautology until you define your terms.

Nobody really cares why people choose to purchase what they do. I've made otherwise irrational purchases based on purely emotional reasons, too. The difference is, when I spend too much money on a classic muscle car because I wanted one as a kid, I don't pretend it has magical powers. Perhaps that's because you can't bullshit yourself on a track time like you can with 'guitar tone'?

dingdingdingding

Until you can get tone down into the realm of metrics, you're only talking preference, and that is malleable in accordance with bias.