Gibson Herb Ellis ES-165 with Floating pickup vs ES-137

[videorov]

I wonder how the two work for JAZZ. Im looking at both of them. I have Les Pauls so the ES-137 might be alot like them and I wouldn't need one.
The Herb Ellis ES-165 seems to be alot different sound and maybe better for JAZZ.

Looking around I see they did make a model that had a tone and volume knob and make one with just volume both have the floating pickup. I don't see many with the tone and volume knobs with the floating pickup too.

[Takemitsu]

Never heard of the es-137 "herb Ellis" are you sure it's not es-165?

[videorov]

Yes you are right I mean the ES-165 with floating small pickup., I changed my post.

[lawson-stone]

Yes you are right I mean the ES-165 with floating small pickup., I changed my post.

There are actually 2 versions of the ES165 Herb Ellis. The older one from the 1990's had a humbucker mounted in the body, and a volume/tone control just like the ES175. Then the later version features the floating pickup with volume control.

[videorov]

Yea I see that while looking on the net. Some say they like the floating pickup and some like the mounted.
Im also looking at the West Montgomery which has the floating pickup on some and some fixed mounted.
Then theres the L5CES with two pick ups and Im not sure the two picks is really needed for the JAZZ sound.
I have plenty of other guitars Les Paul and many more for the other sound.
I like the sound that Lee Ritenour gets from his West Montgomery with floating pickup.

[Takemitsu]

Again, I have never heard of a Wes Montgomery with floating but my expertise has limits. If you want the trad arch top experience go with the es-165 I had es-175, several arch top with floating and the es-137. Honestly in a blind test you could fool almost anyone with those 2 guitars. More important in my opinion is feel of the neck, and feel/weight of the body. The es-137 is heavier but has a better fret access. There is something magic for me with 16 inch archtops. They just feel comfortable if not too heavy. If you are already covered rock-wise. You should go with the es-165 and get the lam archtop feel so you know how you like it. Those have good and easy resell value. Some may say the floating pickup makes no since on a laminate with pots on the table. I agree it make no sense but I'm pretty sure the end result would sound similar to most people.

[videorov]

I have seen just a few Older Herb Ellis ES-165 that had a tone and volume knob. Most I see now have
just the Volume knob. The necks on them look nice and not as big as on the ES-137 which some people
say its a bit to chunky for them.

The two Herb Ellis ES-165 Im looking at have just the Volume knob and from the ones I have listened to
they sound good and have the floating pickup. Oh I guess I did see a couple tonight that have the 2 knobs but not the floating
pickup. So I know some like the floating pickups and some like the fixed to body type, Hmmmmmm have to decide that too.


That might be my ticket for that sound Im looking for in
the JAZZ world.

[GNAPPI]

See the videos on youtube of Achim Kohl hr plays a 137 sounds good to me

[videorov]

Yes have watched his videos and his sounds good. Some say the necks are a little big like older Les Pauls but I haven't played one.
I had some older Les Pauls with larger neck so I think I know what they are taking about. My new Les Pauls have contour necks
and easier to play. I think the ES-165 neck is a bit slimmer like this guy is play Herb Ellis model floating pickup.

See the videos on youtube of Achim Kohl hr plays a 137 sounds good to me

[videorov]

L5 Wes Montgomery model.

Again, I have never heard of a Wes Montgomery with floating but my expertise has limits. If you want the trad arch top experience go with the es-165 I had es-175, several arch top with floating and the es-137. Honestly in a blind test you could fool almost anyone with those 2 guitars. More important in my opinion is feel of the neck, and feel/weight of the body. The es-137 is heavier but has a better fret access. There is something magic for me with 16 inch archtops. They just feel comfortable if not too heavy. If you are already covered rock-wise. You should go with the es-165 and get the lam archtop feel so you know how you like it. Those have good and easy resell value. Some may say the floating pickup makes no since on a laminate with pots on the table. I agree it make no sense but I'm pretty sure the end result would sound similar to most people.

[Max405]

The only downside to the 165 with the floater is the position of the volume knob.
Both guitars are extraordinary for playing Jazz. The sound of the 165 is more complex, with highs, lows and everything in between, and the 137 is thicker.
You cant go wrong with either guitar.
Joe D

[goldenwave77]

The German guy (not Achim Kohl) who is demo-ing the 165 tends to play everything with a distinctive amp and effects setup. I think these obscure the differences between a lot of the guitars, and as a result, a lot of the differences in sound are lost. (I think his sound is too amp-dependent to really show very much.)

Jon Dalton on youtube has a video on the 165. The playing starts at the 8:00 minute mark, and it's the humbucker-embedded pu model.

Calonfula Mercader, on youtube, under Guitarras de Jazz, also has a video with a floater 165. I think the difference between the floater and the humbucker model, is pretty evident. He also has one with a 175 humbucker model, and most people think the humbucker 165's and 175 are interchangeable, for front pu-sound purposes.

[videorov]

Always something to think about before I pull the switch.
Do you think having just the Volume control would be a big thing on the 165. The 137 has a 6 way varitone switch plus
the volume and tone knobs.
Yes the volume knob on the 165 might get hit a bit. I guess you have to play more forward of it.

The only downside to the 165 with the floater is the position of the volume knob.
Both guitars are extraordinary for playing Jazz. The sound of the 165 is more complex, with highs, lows and everything in between, and the 137 is thicker.
You cant go wrong with either guitar.
Joe D

[lawson-stone]

I have seen just a few Older Herb Ellis ES-165 that had a tone and volume knob. Most I see now have
just the Volume knob. The necks on them look nice and not as big as on the ES-137 which some people
say its a bit to chunky for them.

The two Herb Ellis ES-165 Im looking at have just the Volume knob and from the ones I have listened to
they sound good and have the floating pickup. Oh I guess I did see a couple tonight that have the 2 knobs but not the floating
pickup. So I know some like the floating pickups and some like the fixed to body type, Hmmmmmm have to decide that too.


That might be my ticket for that sound Im looking for in
the JAZZ world.

IN general, the ones with the set-in pickups will have volume and tone controls. The ones with floating pickups will just have the volume control.

Note also that an L4c with a floating pickup can look at first just like the ES165 because the body shape is the same. The L4c has a solid carved top, not the laminated top of the ES165.

[videorov]

Those L-5 West Montgomery are real nice. Cost a bit but seem to hold their value. I found a few used that are pretty good price.
Its all what I want to spend I guess.
I have lots of good guitars and it keeps me off the streets I don't like stuff that doesn't play well. Im use to real nice models
I will have to think about it.
None of the stores around here have any of these guitars.

I see the ES-175 bring a few bucks too and look nice and there are some older ones that cost as much as a L-5 Montgomery

[Doctor Jeff]

The 137 and its cousin 135 are great guitars. The 135 might be better for jazz with a balsa wood block, not mahogany, and a trapeze tailpiece.

Ergonomically they are both wonderful, though not super lightweight.

Admittedly they don't have the thunk of the larger width 175 and 165, but for MOST people they will fit the bill for a mellow jazz tone. They are cheaper and more versatile than the 175, and it is a shame they have not stayed in continuous production.

[rio]

Yea I see that while looking on the net. Some say they like the floating pickup and some like the mounted.
Im also looking at the West Montgomery which has the floating pickup on some and some fixed mounted.
Then theres the L5CES with two pick ups and Im not sure the two picks is really needed for the JAZZ sound.
I have plenty of other guitars Les Paul and many more for the other sound.
I like the sound that Lee Ritenour gets from his West Montgomery with floating pickup.

Part of the L-5ces sound is because of the second pickup though. It decreases resonance on the top from the mass of the pickup and the second hole being cut in it. The difference is less pronounced, in my opinion, with the 165/175 because it is laminate and not a carved top.

Regarding the Es-137, a student of mine had one, and that is my only experience with it, but I would much rather just play an es-335. It sounds ok I guess but isn't punchy and has a much more solid body sound but without the great upper fret access of the 335. You can get god deals on them now though and they look great.


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[Jabberwocky]

Max405 very ably demonstrated the Gibson Solid Formed 17 when he had one. You may find them used or cleared out at about the same price point of a new ES-165 with the floating pickup.

If you like the Captain Fingers L5 Signature tone I think you will dig the Solid Formed 17.

[rio]

Wow, that sounds great and wonderful playing. I don't know anything about the solid formed - I'd love to get my hands on one and try it. Does the neck feel like an L5 or is it different?


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[GNAPPI]

Yes have watched his videos and his sounds good. Some say the necks are a little big like older Les Pauls but I haven't played one.
I had some older Les Pauls with larger neck so I think I know what they are taking about. My new Les Pauls have contour necks
and easier to play. I think the ES-165 neck is a bit slimmer like this guy is play Herb Ellis model floating pickup.

In your OP you didn't say you heard Achim play the 137 or thought the 137 neck profile was unlikely to be a fit. The two git styles (Semi and full hollow) have very different... well just about everything. IMO I'd Leave it (a semi) alone.

I have to add in here, the 137 is lighter than my 335 by a few ounces but heavier than my 175 by over a pound (19 oz.) so weight may be a big issue there too.

[vinlander]

IMHO I don't think the floater version do justice to the laminated 165; to me it sounds brighter and thinner than the full humbucker set in version and without a tone knob you can't roll back on the instrument itself.
None of the floater equipped 165 I heard so far sounds like what I expect a 175ish guitar to sound like, but that is a personal opinion.
The point of a floater is to minimize the hindrance on top vibration and makes sense on a more acoustic oriented thin carved top.
I just don't see the point in putting a floater on a thick laminated top electric focussed instrument.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Wow, that sounds great and wonderful playing. I don't know anything about the solid formed - I'd love to get my hands on one and try it. Does the neck feel like an L5 or is it different?


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I've played two of them, one mine and one a friend's (the friend's being the one that used to belong to Max405 that you hear in the video). The necks were different on the two of them, but both were definitely on the 50s Gibson side of things. The neck on mine has a deeper feel than any L5 I've played though.

They are made in the custom shop and the necks are hand carved, so they will vary somewhat. FWIW, these are both Bruce Kunkel signed instruments.

[Dutchbopper]

As usual my feelings on the subject are a bit stronger. I played the 165 with the floater and I hated it. Trebly and lacking the "real" 175 thunk sound. My 175 blew it away so hard the guy who owned it - a student of mine at the time - sold it right away and got one with humbuckers.

By the way, the German guy demoing the 165 with the floater sounds the same on all his guitars. So his demos are kind of useless. He has a bit of a following but I find him kind of annoying when he demoes archtops. He's basically a blues player playing some faux jazz over loops.

DB

[videorov]

Thanks for all the input. Yes the solid formed I had not seen before.

[mr. beaumont]

I think the 165 sounds...well...I can't tell. Sounds like it has light strings and the guy really isn' playing in a jazz style...and does he ever play a chord?

Now, Joe on the solid formed sounds great. I thought those guitars were stupidly overpriced, but it sounds great.