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I'm not getting the right jazz tone out of the tremolux. It has a upgraded OT (8 ohms) running into a 2x Celestion G12H open cab from the 70's. Headroom is not the problem but I can't get the balanced jazz sound I get from my 1976 Princeton non-reverb. I play a L-7 with floating pu.
Is a bf tremolux the right choice for jazz?
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I used a blonde tremolux - amp and cabinet - for a few months. The original fender cabinet was closed back and had 2 10's, which makes it different from your 2 x 12" setup, but I though it had a wonderful jazz sound. I'd be very surprised if the amp itself can't give those princeton sounds, if you use the T and B controls extensively. I'm surprised the OT needed 'upgrading', they are big relative to the amp's power.
Possibly the cabinet you are using is making the difference - celestions are rather different from Jensens - but even then I'm surprised you can't get a good sound, using a SF Princeton ( which I also have) as a reference point. I have found that nearly all older fenders are great for jazz if the tonestack is adjusted correctly; even a vibro-champ can record surprisingly well.
I'd have kept the amp & cabinet, but it was big and heavy for small gigs needing 25 w max, so it went.
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Good to hear that you got a nice jazz sound out of your white tremolux (AA763?).
G12H's are considered a good match with bf Fenders. I have no opportunity to compare it with other speaker configurations but it could solve the problem. But I'm not sure and it will cost me an arm and a leg to find out.
Transformer was changed to meet the 8 ohms of the 16 ohms Celestions. Also, the stock OT is a little week so more iron will give tighter low end. But to be honest, the low end is not tight either. Possibly changing the OT again to a MM, Hammond or Allen might solve the problem. But again, I'm not sure and it is a costly operation.
Still, there may be something wrong with the amp. But amp is checked by a tech and he didn't find any flaws...
Any other experiences with these amps for jazz?
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I hope someone else replies - but if they don't, I'd try changing a couple of the components in the 'tonestack' circuit before you invest in new transformers etc. It's cheap, and totally reversible if you don't like it - but can drastically change the tone of the amp to a fatter ( or thinner) sound.
PS mine was a 6G9-A, with more middle than your AB amp
Last edited by Franz 1997; 01-22-2017 at 02:16 PM.
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I was never 100% satisfied with the sound of my blonde tremolux for jazz. It seems to be muddy, or too thin, but never fat and yet balanced.
I have not played it much ... if at all, since I bought my polytone.
I don't really dare modding it in any way since it's a collectible.
And I think the loudspeakers are dead and should be replaced. But I can't bring myself to spend any money on it. I'm just waiting for it to get more value as it gets older.
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The Princeton non reverb, in my opinion (and also others on this Forum) is one of the best sounding amps you could have. There aren't many amps that sound as good.
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Your non-reverb Princeton has a completely different phase inverter and power amp, so don't expect the Vibrolux to sound a lot like it.
I'd advise against changing transformers unless there's a defect with your transformer or if it has the wrong specs (e.g., power rating or impedances).
I have a 1968 Fender Bandmaster non-reverb, which has a similar circuit to your Tremolux. The power supplies and filtering and transformer specs differ since Tremolux uses GZ34 rectifier and Bandmaster is solid state, but the preamps, power amp and tremolo circuits are virtually identical.
The VIBRATO channel of the Tremolux and non-Reverb Bandmaster sounds much inferior to the NORMAL channel due to the "VIBRATO" (really tremolo) circuitry and due to the fact that it's missing one preamp stage that most of Fender's reverb models have. I'd recommend only using NORMAL channel. It sounds much fuller. The NORMAL channel is also missing the extra stage of amplification you get from a reverb circuit, but at least the VIBRATO circuitry isn't sucking gain and tone.
For a balanced non-scooped frequency response, I'd recommend starting with treble and bass controls set to 1. Adjust the volume control to set the desired volume for midrange frequencies, then bring the bass and treble controls up just enough to suit your ear. With this approach you'll probably end up with very low treble and bass settings and punchy "jazz tone" (if there is such a thing).
A couple of years ago I was advised to try setting the amp's volume knob to near maximum and use the guitar's volume pot to set the level. That was a game-changer for me in improving tone, adding a sense of "muscle" even at moderate volumes, and giving me instant control over a wide range of dynamics.
Last edited by KirkP; 01-24-2017 at 01:06 AM.
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Thanks for sharing your experiences.
I never played a blonde tremolux but I understand that the 6G9-A is a very different curcuit than the blackface AB763.
Kirk, I tried all the settings you suggested but the best (still not good) sound I get on the vibrato channel with bass on 2-3 and treble 3-4; pu volume full and adjustment to taste with the tone knob (BTW it's a 50's DeArmond model 1000).
Do you use the bright switch up or down?
But: After some playing with different tubes swapping the v2 Tung-Sol for a EH improved tone. Lows are tighter now. Unpleasant shimmering in mid and high was less than with the Tung-Sol. Also a GE 5751 was better than the Tung-Sol. Could be that the Tung-Sol is getting worn out or not functioning well?... With bass knob on 1 the lows are OK now but still too much with bass knob over 2.
I hope the Tung-Sol was the problem and not that my ears are fooling me...But to be sure I will try it at the rehearsal on higher volumes (with a hard hitting organ player).
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I've never actually used a Vibrolux, so I'm just trying to give you some ideas based on my experience with the Bandmaster, Twin Reverb, and a Princeton clone.
So did you try the Normal channel and preferred the Vibrato channel?
Since you had a better result with the vibrato channel by replacing V2 with an EH tube, you might try that EH tube in V1 and see if it improves the Normal channel.
I generally set the bright switch according to the situation and the guitar. The bright switch circuit has decreased effect the higher you set the volume knob, so you might find the bright switch is nice when you're turned up but too bright if you're playing at low volumes.
Component values drift with age, especially carbon resistors and electrolytic capacitors. (I think mica caps are more stable.) If your tech has only looked for obvious failure and didn't check values, it's possible the values have changed enough to screw up your tone. I bit the bullet and replaced all the caps and resistors in the power amp section of my 1974 Twin Reverb, and was amazed at how much better it sounded. I intend to do the same to my Bandmaster, but haven't gotten around to it. If your Tremolux has a lot of old components you might consider that.
Of course, speakers and cabinets make a huge difference. If you aren't certain if your dissatisfaction is due to the amp or speaker system, I'd suggest plugging your speakers into another amp that you like, and plugging your amp into another speaker system you like. That should give you some clues.
Just some ideas -- hope that helps.
Last edited by KirkP; 01-24-2017 at 11:35 PM.
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I worked on one recently and got a great sound with my archtop. I personally don't like Celestions for Jazz, but that's completely personal. Use your princeton's speaker and see what you get. What are you missins, highs, lows mids or complexity? The BF amps can be so creamy sounding....
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Oh, what tubes do you have in it?The new Tung Sol will make most blah sounding amps sound very good!
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I wouldn't change the OT to match the speakers, I would change the speakers, they will make more difference than anything else. I have had my 64 Tremolux for 30+ years and have several cabs with different speakers. I would try a pair of Altec 418 speakers and I think you would be surprised how great your will sound. Even JBLs or EVM12L's. I have a pair of old greenbacks in a cabinet and really only use them through my Mesa or VHT but not usually with Tremolux or Bassman. You can have your tech change the bias on the amp or as you have found the tubes. I run some old Mesa 6L6GC in my Tremolux but I run a pair of 5881 in my 62 Pro. they should sweeten up that amp.
Thanks John
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Yesterday at the rehearsal the EH in v2 improved the tone. I guess the Tung-Sol has slowly deteorated while still functioning so it tricked me... Sound was more balanced with tighter low end and better adjustable, and a little warmer overall sound.Still the normal channel did not do it for me. It never has. I remember that there was a tone stack change made to make it more suited for rock. The vibrato channel is far better sounding for jazz. I put the bright switch down most of the time but at higer volumes when it get a little boomy I put it up. I changed the bright switch cap from 120 pF to 100 Silver Mica so the effect is less dramatic.I am reluctant to change more than a few components and if I do, only if necessary. The amp is in fairly original shape and a bf tremolux export model is something of a collectible here in Europe so I don't want mess with it too much.Your comments on speakers made me think than the tremolux-Celestion combination might not do it for jazz (may be right for rock only). So I'm going to look for other speakers. Although they are scarce around here.. I did plug in the tremolux into the princeton cab (Weber C10Q=10F125 or a Eminence Lil' Buddy) but it didn't sound good. Maybe a 10'' is too small for the tremolux and it needs at least a 2x10 or 1x12?I'll keep rereading your kind suggestions. Thanks again.
Last edited by jpb; 01-27-2017 at 06:13 AM.
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I'm talking out of something I haven't tried.
But from hearing my tremolux again lately I'd say that the eq is not good for jazz. Too much mids are removed.
So I see two solutions for this: change the values of the components in the tone stack. Or change the speaker.
There might be other possibilities involving changing the cap at the cathode of the peramp tubes but im not sure that would have the effect I'd want. It would increase the gain and alter the fréquency response of the preamp stage giving it more mids. But if they are removed in the tone stack it doesn't make sense. Anyway the easiest change would be to use a mid focused speaker with it.
What I'd do if I had to use that amp for jazz would be:
-add a mid pot and put it behind the head using one of the unused switches hole.
-Change the speakers to something creamier.
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You have a point. I would say the Tremolux does not have the punch and mid clarity of a more powerful amp. The power tubes are not driven as hard as in other amps. Even my Bassman which has the power and punch that the Tremolux lacks. But I still think speakers and judicial use of the tone knobs with get you most of the way but not all the way. That is why I bought my 1962 Fender Pro.
Thanks john
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So it may be that a tremolux has more of a mid scoop than other blackfaces, even the ones also having the AB763 circuit?
PWJ, do you mean the plate voltages on the power tubes? These are quite low in a tremolux if I recall well.
Tomorrow, I'll visit a tech to have another check to see if the amp is healthy and to discuss the options for mods.
I'll let you know what his advise will be. Thanks again.
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you'll find that simply changing one of the capacitors in the tone stack ( tone controls) can have a very significant effect on the amount of middle frequencies.
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You can change the 6.8 resistor on the bass or even replace it with a 25k pot that you can install in one of the jacks that you don't use on the back panel
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I put a JAN GE 5751 in v2 (I play the vibrato channel first input) and while not sounding better at room volume, I was pleasantly surprised to hear it at rehearsal volume. Not yet there, but a better balance. Next day I visited a tech and he put a JJ 12AY7 in v2 and sound was again a little better. He suggested a complete overhaul, checking tubes, filter caps etc. and see how that will work. Later on some component changes can be made if necessary, including a mid pot. His comment on the G12H30's was that it could work but that these 75 Hertz versions (1976) were on the bright side. But I like my tone old school clear and detailed so these speaker might work in the end.
I'll let you know once the amp is back in two weeks. Thanks again for your helpful comments.
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Amp is now back from the tech and he replaced the filter caps and had a rebias. I tried it at home and its better now. At rehearsal it has back some punch and volume to cut through de band. it is pretty much like how I remembered before the sound got worse (since half a year). It sound OK now but still not how I would like it... Lows are a little flabby and there still is a background shimmering which compromised the overall detail. It is also apparent when I run it through the 10'' speaker in my Princeton.
My tech found some drifting carbon comp resistors so replacing them will be the next step. Also, I'm thinking of following the advise of adding a mid-pot on the back of the amp. Last, I am curiuos how a 2x10 Vibrolux-sized open cab would sound. I have an Eminence Lil Buddy lying around and combined with another Eminence (Copperhead) it will give a better jazz tone? Besides, the Celestions are heavy as hell lugging around..
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It has a closed back speaker cab? To me, Fender amps sound better thru open back cabs, so that's a direction I would experiment into. Different speakers do a lot, they are in fact frequency filters, so yes, there is a chance you might like different speakers better. But experimenting with speakers unfortunately is trial and error and expensive. Try to plug your amp into as many speakers and cabs as you can! (I once specially made a speaker cable with a jack-female at one end, so I could plug speakers of amps I encountered elsewhere).
I play my Blues Deluxe and my AB763 Twin Reverb (clone) with the mid pot almost fully open, you amp has a fixed mid resistor, so if you want more mids you need a higher resister value or indeed a pot to be able to change the mids response. Also a less costly mod so, yes, advisable.
Another great resistor value to experiment with is the negative feedback resistor. Making a variable negative feedback control with a pot meter might be wort while.
Lastly: tone stack. My Twin has two different tone stacks. The vibrato channel is 'stock' AB763 and the normal channel has a Bassman/early Marshall tone stack. Slight different response and sound, you might like one better than the other.
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+1 to plugging your amp into as many speakers as you can.
I am very fond of my Princeton Recording (I know, it's unloved by many), but I recently discovered that it really shines when plugged into a Jensen C12n. The bottom end fills out without booming and dominating the mids and trebles.
I'm going to carry out a few more experiments with a view to adding an external open-back 12" cabinet. I guess my old trusty old solids state state Laney Linebacker will have to go to make room for it.....
Last edited by Ray175; 02-28-2017 at 09:16 AM.
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Little Jay, it is an open back in a cab I made from a worn out Carlsbro TR60 Twin amp from the 70's. I never tried the closed back piggyback cabs as I bought the Tremolux as a top only. BTW both Celestions (G12H30) are from 1972 and in good shape so they may be worth something if I decide to sell them. I'm reluctant to change the NFB as it didn't work out well in my sf NR Princeton. Adding a mid-pot is the first next step. Changing speakers I'm also considering as the G12H30's have too much lows and lack tightness. Still, they are great speakers and have detailed highs without harshness which is a good thing. Overall not exactly what I'm after for the jazz I play. I'm on my way for new speakers, maybe 2x10...I like the punchiness of 10"s. I have a Eminence Lil Buddy so adding a not-too-expensive 10'' I may end up with a smaller cab and good tone. Less heavy too..
I forgot to mention that together with new filter caps, my tech replaced the old original Teonex GZ34 and the phase inverter Mullard 4024 for JJ's. I must say that this also contributes to a better sound. I found that these tubes started to wear out despite they were still functioning. Yesterday at a session I played through the mix with a balsy tone pretty easy like I could before, maybe even better.
I'm not there yet but my tone is good enough for the moment. Back to practising 
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