'50s Gibson L-7C

[Dennis D]

'Guitarcarver' ( please )

That 'hump in the fingerboard near the joint ' - -where is that exactly - -in the area of the 12th -14th frets ?

Also, the bridge is down as far down as it'll go. Is this calling for some work at the nut ? Do these thin fret L-7 tops flex more than L-5's - could they be braced any differently ?

Also, can relief be adjusted to provide different string resistances? Meaning could the same guitar give you low action with some resistance, or low action with very little or no resistance ?

Thanks !

[Max405]

Guys, Please.. Listen to the last 2 posts. Vinny opened my eyes to the subject. He knows what he is talking about.
And GuitarCarver, is one of the best luthiers around. The feel and sound of your guitar TOTALLY changes for the better with the bigger frets. No one has as light a touch as I do. I guarantee that. For me, Playing a guitar with the medium Jumbos with a crown makes playing a pleasure instead of chore. What Vinny is saying is sooo right. If you play simple stuff, none of this matters. But if you are playing notes all over the neck, stretch chords and anything complicated, why torture yourself? We do this for pleasure and in some cases to put food on the table. Why make it harder on yourself? The skinny frets train you to be precise. But you cant be precise on every note when you are playing thousands of them. And you and all your listeners will remember the crappy notes more than they will remember how precise you were on the rest of the stuff you played..

I don't mean to sound like a know it all, cuz I am not. I am just trying to help. That's all.
Joe D.

[guitarcarver]

Vinnyv1k,

The 64 J.S. was an instrument I purchased for myself. The frets were the most worn I had ever seen. They were actually scalloped clear down to the fingerboard were the strings touched. Makes me think about playing more!

It was a butt kicker of a job but worth it in the end. Had I done this job for a customer it would have been in the $650.00 and up range. This would include rolling the edge of the new binding to feel like a comfortably worn in guitar, new faux Tortoise side dots, and tinted lacquer.

I'm with you about crowning enhancing tone.

The guy I was playing in a duo with at the time talked me out of the guitar, but I still get to visit it from time to time.

[guitarcarver]

'Guitarcarver' ( please )

That 'hump in the fingerboard near the joint ' - -where is that exactly - -in the area of the 12th -14th frets ?

Also, the bridge is down as far down as it'll go. Is this calling for some work at the nut ? Do these thin fret L-7 tops flex more than L-5's - could they be braced any differently ?

Also, can relief be adjusted to provide different string resistances? Meaning could the same guitar give you low action with some resistance, or low action with very little or no resistance ?

Thanks !

Sounds like you'll be needing a neck reset. Your luthier should be able to assess this. Often you'll see bridges or saddles carved way down to compensate for the shallow angle.....don't do this with your original Brazilian bridges.
This is a good time to have the glue joints at the neck block checked.

The hump will be obvious. Have your person check this.

If the guitar is stable and has settled in well, the new higher frets sometimes will put the thumbwheels back up enough to be within spec. "sometimes"

[vinnyv1k]

Also try taking out all your neck relief....neck dead straight with no backbow and see what happens. This may give you some bridge height if you have too much relief. Also this tells you the trussrod is working properly.
With zero relief you should have less than a .010 gap at the 7th fret while pressing down on the low E at the 1st and 17th fret. Some argue 1st and 12th fret but Gibson says 1st and 17th for measuring relief at the 7th. I personally eyeball it down the neck. If your neck has a ton of relief do it in steps over a couple days. I like to oil my fretboard a day before I tighten a trussrod. We all have our set ways of doing things.

[Dennis D]

Also try taking out all your neck relief....neck dead straight with no backbow and see what happens. This may give you some bridge height if you have too much relief. Also this tells you the trussrod is working properly.
With zero relief you should have less than a .010 gap at the 7th fret while pressing down on the 1st and 17th fret. Some argue 1st and 12th fret but Gibson says 1st and 17th for measuring relief at the 7th. I personally eyeball it down the neck. If your neck has a ton of relief do it in steps over a couple days. I like to oil my fretboard a day before I tighten a trussrod. We all have our set ways of doing things.

The ( very little ) backbow / relief it has is consistent. There could be a bump at the 10th.

I was looking for side-to-side irregularities sighting it down the neck, but didn't see any.

It doesn't look like there's anything glaring - - no sunk top, no bowed-out or bowed-in f/b, harmonics are accurate...For me, the strings are a little too far above the f/b, which maybe I can live with, but they have too little tension for me....and they're 12/52's, and you'd think they were 10-48's with plain 3'rd's.......


anyway, thanks for all the advice......


SO - -

Next time I bring it in what else do I ask my luthier:
1. Do this need a neck re-set ?
2. Does it need a refret ?
3. How do I get better action & some tension on these strings ?

Thanks again.....

[PB+J]

Ok so seriously here is a short noodly clip I just recorded, full of mistakes and I had tool much wine with dinner, but it will make the point.

It's a hollow body telecaster I built myself with Bill Lawrence microcoil pickups- it's fully hollow, with a braced spruce top and no center block

The frets are THE SMALLEST STEWMAC SELLS



Help tiny frets make me play cowboy chords!

I mean, look I'm not claiming to be a great player or even a good player, but I seem to be getting around ok and I'm really happy with the tone, despite the tone crushing tiny frets.

[Dennis D]

Ok so seriously here is a short noodly clip I just recorded, full of mistakes and I had tool much wine with dinner, but it will make the point.

It's a hollow body telecaster

And the guitar I've been referencing is a full size, full body archtop - - acoustic.....meaning not electric.....with no pickup.....and strung with 12's.......

.....so yes, it too has 6 strings, but aside from the frets, these 2 instruments don't have a lot in common......

[Max405]

I guess I started this, so maybe I can help & come to Joe's defense. I don't think he was trying to establish any rule for all. He was trying to help me understand the questions / problems I am having with one of my guitars outfitted with skinny frets.

Some of the guitar problems we have here have already been solved by others members. And if you're helpful - which Joe always is - and want to help someone else avoid a lot of headeaches - -which Joe usually does - maybe it sounds like him advocating a rule.

But hey, if you're all over the f/b with skinny frets, and happy doing it, good for you.

But if you've been scratching your head for a solution like I am, and the answer could be looking hard and long at replacing skinny frets, then bad rule or whatever, it's been helpful.

Thanks Joe and to all the usual suspects.

Dennis

Dennis, Thanks for your post. I am glad you know that all I want to do is help you bro.
Thanks. I've gone a long time here without being disrespected. That one has me aggrevated.
Having owned one of those GREAT guitars, the symptoms you explained made me draw a conclusion that it was the same concern that I had with mine. Now I am hoping its nothing worse. Of course I would trust Gary's opinion over anything I say. He is a pro.
I hope it works out for you bro.

]
I totally do not understand this argument. I play all over the neck, standard jazzbo style and find the small skinny frets easier and more pleasant to play

Why do people feel the need to turn their personal preference into some kind of rule?

Hey PB+J, I can't even figure out how to respond to your post. I wasn't even talking to you and it wasn't an argument, so why don't you get pissy somewhere else? I listened to your clip. You went overboard trying to prove that you don't play cowboy chords but what you should have done is put a little more effort into playing jazzbo a little cleaner. I heard much of the same thin sound, laden with inaccurately played notes that I referred to in my post, so thank you for helping me prove my point. Although that's not what you were trying do. Thanks anyway..

[Hammertone]

No matter what I decide to do with this '50's L-7, my all-time keeper will always be my '37 L-7, with those picture frame inlays. That one also has those uh ' thinner ' frets, and even has a ' settled ' top.......I can not get it to sound or play like this '37 - - and man I have tried !!

These two instruments built very differently from each other- why would you expect that they could sound the same? One is a short-scale, x-braced archtop with a double arch carve, the other is a long-scale, parallel-braced guitar with a single arch carve.

[Dennis D]

These two instruments built very differently from each other- why would you expect that they could sound the same? One is a short-scale, x-braced archtop with a double arch carve, the other is a long-scale, parallel-braced guitar with a single arch carve.

I guess I've come to accept the sound difference, so, ok let's take that part out, for the sake of discussion, meaning whatever the sound is, is what it is...

So that having been said - -

The '37 string feel - all 12/52's - thin frets - short scale ( 25 in. ) - have more bite to them.....

The '50 string feel -again 12/52's - thin frets - long scale ( 25.5 In ) - play looser......

And the Wesmo string feel - again 12/52's - - now med frets - - also long scale - - ( 25.5 ) plays with same bite as short scale.......

So, what can be concluded - -it can't be just scale length, and it can't be just frets......what basically gives 2 of the above guitars an acceptable attack and 1 almost none ?


Thanks thanks !!~

[vinnyv1k]

I have 3 L5 Wesmo's. I use the same 13 TI's flats on all 3. I have the action and relief identical on all 3. The bridge height is different on all 3 as is the string tension. All the exact same model guitar. On one of them 13's feel like 10's. They all have the medium/jumbo frets also. No 2 guitars are the same. Even the neck profiles feel different on all 3.

[jim777]

... and I had too much wine with dinner..

There are only a few things I really like more than a bit too much wine at dinner (as long as I don't have to go to work in the morning!) but I have personally found that too much wine and posting in forums doesn't work well for me

And as always, if a post of mine can be taken two ways, and one is lighthearted and friendly, that was the way I meant it to be taken!

Thanks Joe.

No matter what I decide to do with this '50's L-7, my all-time keeper will always be my '37 L-7, with those picture frame inlays. That one also has those uh ' thinner ' frets, and even has a ' settled ' top..

..but no guitar I've ever owned sounds as good.....

That's been my problem since I got this '50's L7C.....I can not get it to sound or play like this '37 - - and man I have tried !!


We'll see......but no matter, thanks to all !!

You should probably just find someone with a nice green PRS CU24 and swap it straight up. I heard those green PRS's are the most jazzy

[Max405]

I have 3 L5 Wesmo's. I use the same 13 TI's flats on all 3. I have the action and relief identical on all 3. The bridge height is different on all 3 as is the string tension. All the exact same model guitar. On one of them 13's feel like 10's. They all have the medium/jumbo frets also. No 2 guitars are the same. Even the neck profiles feel different on all 3.

I guess that's what happens when those darn humans get involved in the manufacturing process.

All kidding aside, an engineer would read Vinny's post and have 300 questions and he wont go to sleep until all the questions were answered and he figured out what is making that happen.

You know the one thing I am nervous as hell about is when I get my GJS refretted in 13 days, I know the luthier has to make me a new nut. I am praying that doesn't go wrong. I think nut height is a very important consideration with guitars. Right now the action on my GJS is almost absurdly low (and I love it) and I know the new nut will undoubtedly change a lot about this guitar. But I also know that I cant use the old nut with the new (higher) frets. So I will be on the ledge if anyone is looking for me..

[vinnyv1k]

Frank Ford never chipped the lacquer replacing nuts for me. He scores the lacquer around the nut with a very sharp blade and removes all lacquer that is on the old nut before he removes it. I think he has replaced around 8-9 nuts for me and all were perfect. I used to be a die hard bone nut guy but now I like corian better. It is harder and never turn yellow or brown with age. I have seen some bone nuts turn pink with age also.

[vinnyv1k]

Joe....make sure your guy polishes your new nut also. They look sweet nice and shiney like the rest of your axe :-)

[Dennis D]

.......Just following up on the ' system ' suggestion, nut / bridge /relief etc ), I gave that L-7 skinny fret another look and sure enough the nut is split !! I would take a photo and upload but the site hasn't let me upload photo's for a while for some reason.

Anyway, not sure the luthier & I both missed it, or it's been a repair or ?? So am I right - -it should be replaced and new one re-fitted, w/ slots cut ?? Anything else ??

But now I will be racing it over to the luthier and look forward to getting it back and hearing it - -maybe for the first time. Go figure.


Thanks again !!

[vinnyv1k]

A fret level,crown, and polish

[citizenk74]

I have 3 L5 Wesmo's. I use the same 13 TI's flats on all 3. I have the action and relief identical on all 3. The bridge height is different on all 3 as is the string tension. All the exact same model guitar. On one of them 13's feel like 10's. They all have the medium/jumbo frets also. No 2 guitars are the same. Even the neck profiles feel different on all 3.

This seems relevant. At one time I had three PRS Custom 24s. All had Brazilian Rosewood fingerboards, and Honduran Mahogany necks and bodies. Two had Red Maple caps, luxuriantly curly; and in the case of the Vintage Yellow one, book-matched, highly unusual for an '86. The other was Emerald Green. The third had a Pacific Coast hard maple cap, quilted to beat the band, in Whale Blue. I set up all three instruments with new and identical sets of strings. I set up all three with identical action at the twelfth fret, and identical height of the vibrato tailpiece float. Strumming the open strings and then damping them, and listening to the vibrato strings ring, yielded the following results.

Little Egypt Gold (V.Y.) rang a clear and resonant E. L.E. Green - ditto at G. L.E. Blue - B. Make of this what you will.

P.S. All my guitars are named "Little Egypt". All my amps are "Godzilla".

P.P.S. The green ones are neither more or less jazzy than the others. They are, however, significantly greener.

[stringmaster]

Does anyone know what years Gibson used the small/skinny frets? I had a '52 archtop and I never got on with the frets, and it was too nice for me to want to refret. Didn't the early guitars have bigger frets, and wasn't there a time in the 50's when they moved to more of a medium fret?
Thx

[Dennis D]

Does anyone know what years Gibson used the small/skinny frets? I had a '52 archtop and I never got on with the frets, and it was too nice for me to want to refret. Didn't the early guitars have bigger frets, and wasn't there a time in the 50's when they moved to more of a medium fret?
Thx

I re- checked my '36 L-7 - close - I'd originally thought those were on the thin side, but they're not. I don't think it's ever been refretted , but those frets are much closer to the WesMo than the '50's thin ones.

Also - were those '30's frets brass ? They've got a brown color to them.

And FWIW, I mentioned the split nut on my '50's L-7 to my luthier, and he didn't seem to think it's a big reason for playability issues, but he is busy now and won't really get at it for a few weeks.....

[wintermoon]

Does anyone know what years Gibson used the small/skinny frets? I had a '52 archtop and I never got on with the frets, and it was too nice for me to want to refret. Didn't the early guitars have bigger frets, and wasn't there a time in the 50's when they moved to more of a medium fret?
Thx

skinny all years up until mid '59

[Dennis D]

skinny all years up until mid '59

..Do you mean that they were standard every model, every year with no chance of a medium fret ?

Or, could this be one of the common Gibson tendencies that can only be explained that they'd use what they had on the shelf ??

[Socraticaster]

Well, I ended up selling my 1960s es-175 DN for the incredibly low price of $2000. Why so low? I found a 1952 Gibson L-7C for sale from someone who wanted an es-175. AND, they were willing to sell theirs for $2600 - or rather, they were willing to trade guitars plus I’d kick in an extra $600. I will be posting pics of the L7C once it arrives.


Now, clearly I sold the guitar for far under market value. But, I got an L7C for quite a bit under market value. They way I was looking at it was, I was hoping to get about $3400 for my guitar, and figured I’d have to pay somewhere in the $4000 range for an L-7C in good condition. So from that perspective, I’m really not behind.


But, I was sort of hoping that my guitar would have gone to someone from this forum - and they could have gotten it for a really good price. Unfortunately, there was no interest, and I had to jump on this deal before it expired. But had anyone offered me anything above $2000 during the last 48 hours, I probably would have sold it.


Anyway, I’m very excited about the L7C. I just have to figure out the best way to electrify it. If anyone has any advice or experience to share, I’m all ears.

My old guitar:


My soon-to-be-new guitar:

SaveSave

[wintermoon]

you did ok, the big jack crack and narrow nut is what held the price of the 175 down
[well, that and the fact that you were really motivated]

enjoy that L7, those late 40s early 50s Gibsons are usually punchy sounding guitars.