Gibson EH-185 vs EH-150?

[Dioxic]

Hey guys, I have the opportunity to buy a Gibson EH-185 locally, but I'm curious how it compares tot he EH-150? There's several for sale online that appear to be in good condition and would be markedly cheaper.

[icr]

You will probably have to play them to find out. I have seen schematics of the later version of the EH-150 that look nearly identical to the EH-185. The early EH-150 uses a transformer for the phase inverter. They all use the field-coil speaker as a power supply choke. That can be its own little nightmare if the speaker goes bad. I was able to repair mine when the field coil came unglued and scraped against the voice coil causing damage.

[Dioxic]

You will probably have to play them to find out. I have seen schematics of the later version of the EH-150 that look nearly identical to the EH-185. The early EH-150 uses a transformer for the phase inverter. They all use the field-coil speaker as a power supply choke. That can be its own little nightmare if the speaker goes bad. I was able to repair mine when the field coil came unglued and scraped against the voice coil causing damage.

What happens if the speaker goes bad? I know these use field coil speakers, but I'm not sure how easy they are to repair, and I know they're hard to replace.

[wintermoon]

To my ears a good 185 beats a good 150 in
much the same way a good ES-250 beats a good ES-150
There's a fuller sound to the 250 and 185
That being said, you can get a superb sound out of a 150 guitar and amp as well

[Greentone]

Both the EH-185 and EH-150 are exceptional sounding amps that bring the owner a whole bunch of ownership issues.

(1) field coil speakers: They sound great, but are 70-80 years old, at this point. They need maintenance and can be difficult to get voice coils, spiders, cones, and surrounds for. Field coils are mostly nonexistent, at this point, so take care of the one on your speaker.

(2) surface components, i.e., capacitors, chokes, resistors, tubes, etc., are all old as the hills. They can be replaced, but generally not with vintage components.

(3) wiring is right out of Imhotep's tomb. The original wiring on some of these amps is just gone--i.e., turned to dust. These amps need more than a "cap job" by now--in many instances. Some of them really need to be carefully re-wired. Not all of them, but some do.

This being acknowledged, the EH amps are brilliantly good sounding amps...as opposed to brilliant sounding amps. I have played through both and envy anyone who has either one in good working order.

I intend to build my own, soon. I have been accumulating the materials--the power transformer is pretty beastly, actually--and I am just about ready to get under way. (full disclosure: I am going to cheat and use a permanent magnet speaker. I know from playing B3 into Leslie cabs with PM and field coil speakers what to expect--the intermodulation distortion you naturally get on the field coil speaker will be largely absent on the PM speaker. On the EH amps that distortion is sort of a key part of the "old timey" sound. It's caused by the AC hum being induced into the speaker through the coil and interacting with the guitar signal. My rebuild will be a touch cleaner because of the absence of a field coil/choke on the speaker.)

[Hep To The Jive]

Why not go with Vintage 47 replica? I would never even thought about gigging with almost 100 years old electrical device, thats just nuts! You would need so much maintence so the original parts wont be there anyway, all at the same time when you can have a reliable almost exact version of it by a great company.

[Michiel]

Hey guys, I am the guy who builds the elektra amps. Couldn't help but notice your discussion!

Biggest differences between the EH150 and the EH185 are the tone controls and cabinet sizes, as well as the removable chassis on the EH185. This is very practical for easy control access!

The older EH150s only have a tone switch and volume control - usefull, but very rudimentary. The last version has a tone control that acted as a bass boost.

The EH185 had 2 or 3 versions - the last one has a single bass-boost tone knob (like the 150).
The earlier models actually have separate bass and treble controls - very desirable for harp players!

There are a couple of guys (including myself) offering a modern interpretation (with PM speaker) of the EH185 currently.
They are listed in this Elektra review in Guitar & Bass magazine earlier this year.

Note that the V47 version is essentially a supro (Valco) based design. While kinda-sorta in the EH185 ballpark, their dynamic response and saturation is markedly different than of an authentic EH185.
I must say I am baffled by Dave's (V47) stunning looks. Side by side, his amp looks 100% like my EH185.

I have no hands-on experience with the Nocturne model, so I can't comment on that personally.

In my amps I aimed at reproducing the dynamic response of that PSU - speaker field-coil interaction.
What I didn't try to reproduce at the time was the intermodulation distortion that the fieldcoil-choke mixup produces. My brain is working on that still.

hope this helps a bit.

[stringmaster]

I have both--and they've both been gone through. To me the 185 is louder, fuller, and more versatile as a result. Having the head installed gives the amp more bottom and removing it gives more high end and open sound--not unlike a closed CS open back cab. The 150 is still cool and is fun for smaller gigs/ensembles. Chained together=lots of fun!

[neatomic]

nice use of vintage 1941 eh185

cheers

[Dioxic]

Hey guys, I am the guy who builds the elektra amps. Couldn't help but notice your discussion!

Biggest differences between the EH150 and the EH185 are the tone controls and cabinet sizes, as well as the removable chassis on the EH185. This is very practical for easy control access!

The older EH150s only have a tone switch and volume control - usefull, but very rudimentary. The last version has a tone control that acted as a bass boost.

The EH185 had 2 or 3 versions - the last one has a single bass-boost tone knob (like the 150).
The earlier models actually have separate bass and treble controls - very desirable for harp players!

There are a couple of guys (including myself) offering a modern interpretation (with PM speaker) of the EH185 currently.
They are listed in this Elektra review in Guitar & Bass magazine earlier this year.

Note that the V47 version is essentially a supro (Valco) based design. While kinda-sorta in the EH185 ballpark, their dynamic response and saturation is markedly different than of an authentic EH185.
I must say I am baffled by Dave's (V47) stunning looks. Side by side, his amp looks 100% like my EH185.

I have no hands-on experience with the Nocturne model, so I can't comment on that personally.

In my amps I aimed at reproducing the dynamic response of that PSU - speaker field-coil interaction.
What I didn't try to reproduce at the time was the intermodulation distortion that the fieldcoil-choke mixup produces. My brain is working on that still.

hope this helps a bit.

thanks for this extensive write up! It was very informative. One thing I noticed, do you Ramos have much clean room? It seems like I hear chords played on the original eh-185 and the V47, but on the samples I heard of yours on YouTube, it appeared that every time somebody played a chord it broke up. Is it more of a dynamics or volume pot thing? Or is it just always ok the edge when it comes to multiphonic stuff

[ruger9]

Michiel,

Thanks for the comments on the V47 - I was wondering about that one, as it comes in quite a bit cheaper than the Elektra or Moonshine '39. But now I know why- it's just an extension of what V47 has been doing for years already (not that there's anything wrong with that, they are cool amps.)

I wish the Elektra was readily available on this side of the pond... Tavo (Nocturne) and vintage (real vintage) seem to be the only games in town over here. Tavo does make great stuff.

[Michiel]

thanks for this extensive write up! It was very informative. One thing I noticed, do you Ramos have much clean room? It seems like I hear chords played on the original eh-185 and the V47, but on the samples I heard of yours on YouTube, it appeared that every time somebody played a chord it broke up. Is it more of a dynamics or volume pot thing? Or is it just always ok the edge when it comes to multiphonic stuff

That's a stage volume thing.

The amp can be clean at a lower volume - I estimate it'll give about 10-12W of clean output.
The transition from clean to crunch is very gradual, very linear. That's the comment I keep getting back from everyone who plays it. And then they take it to a stage and start having fun riding that breakup zone.

Michael Valeanu (of Cyrille Aimee) recently gigged it during their last NL tour.
He stayed on the clean side almost the entire gig with only one or or two moments where he purposely dug in to touch that break-up.
What helps is that their drummer plays very subtle and controlled.

And here is Anton Goudsmit with Trio Peter Beets. He starts off in the clean zone, but as he gathers momentum and the band joins in, he goes more into that crunch zone (like you observed earlier) - but then again, he is also known to venture far into the crunch zone of his Musicman 1x12 on jazz gigs.

[Michiel]

Michiel,

Thanks for the comments on the V47 - I was wondering about that one, as it comes in quite a bit cheaper than the Elektra or Moonshine '39. But now I know why- it's just an extension of what V47 has been doing for years already (not that there's anything wrong with that, they are cool amps.)

Absolutely - I love those Valco designs. Very much a tonal realm of their own.
How he is able to get his prices so low blows my mind completely.

I wish the Elektra was readily available on this side of the pond...

Yes, me too. I use various US-made components. The double shipping really stings.
I wish there was a good (euro-based) alternative for Weber speakers - that would reduce the majority of the shipping overhead.

[neatomic]

valeanu has a great tone in that vid ^..

perhaps you could ship stateside without the speaker...& let the customer get it direct from weber..or work something out with weber

cheers

[icr]

Speaker and cabinet differences will be important.

[Michiel]

valeanu has a great tone in that vid ^..

perhaps you could ship stateside without the speaker...& let the customer get it direct from weber..or work something out with weber

cheers

That is certainly an option.

[murrayatuptown]

Hello:

Decades ago (1989-ish?) I bought a couple Heathkit Williamson amps (W4-M and W4-AM), thinking right off the bat I'd alter them for hi-fi use.

I never did that, and see the value of these fluctuate absurdly. Sometimes they sell more as 'parts units' than sold as 'in working order'. They have Chicago output transformers, not the desirable W5 transformers, which are apparently prone to earlier failure than less boutique-y ones.

Looking at the Williamson circuit and some of the EH- amps, they share a few characteristics...enough to make me think a conversion (inspired by only, not a replica) would be an interesting undertaking. Even if the result deviates far from the EH-185, the result could be a nice distance away from the typical Fender amp (not that there is anything wrong with them).

I have been a technician for decades and worked as an engineer in a couple roles for a few years also. Tubes/valves & high voltage are routine for me, so no concerns for my safety need be placed.

I would abandon field coil speakers as they are too scarce.

The Heath output stage uses 5881's in Class A push-pull.

There is a 6SN7 phase inverter easily changed to the topology of the EH-185 6N7 phase inverter.

There are two triodes left in the W4-xM, via one more 6SN7. So the triode budget is short one triode, but I don't need the mic input. 6SQ7's are still easily found, so the 6SN7 needn't even be retained.


The W4 series are point-to-point wired, so easily gutted and rewired. The negative feedback used in the Heath Williamson circuit would be omitted.

I would use more isolated return/ground techniques than the multi-section can capacitors forced to chassis. I don't do that in any amps anymore. Not caring about retaining 'original' circuitry can be liberating. I use metallized polypropylene (MKP) filter capacitors in power supplies now, as long as there is space available. Goodbye electrolytics with aging characteristics, whether in use or sitting in storage.

Any thoughts from other amp-tamperers? I can't tell you when, but can tell you the intent is there and I'll get to the finish regardless of accusations of insanity.

Thanks for reading.

[murrayatuptown]

ANYthing to avoid playing/practicing...so it seems.