Gibson Byrdland to L-5 transition and back

**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by JazzNote

plectrum, i believe Sgognell's post is not as arrogant as you perceive it. I also believe that the mathematical computations were used mainly to prove that the concept with the capo is valid. This concept certainly is the most practical way to try out the difference of the two scale lengths without having to acquire another instrument with a shorter scale. So in my opinion your question IS addressed. With the knowledge of the given information you are able to find the answer for yourself but you have to believe what is said and really do that "capo thing". However, the feel for the shorter scale could be a bit "clouded" because tuning down would result in lower string tension.

I beg to differ, in re the mathematical approach to the issue. And in that regard, I refer you to the Gibson forum at this link:
Byrdland 23.5" scale question - Gibson Guitar Board

The difference in fret spacing is a physical attribute that cannot be reproduced with a capo. And while the difference may be deemed small, it is discernible by many players. And that is the point that I tried to get across. In any event, I should have a brand new Byrd in hand sometime this week and will be able to provide unequivocal proof, since I will be able to place the Byrd alongside an L5 CES. As for arrogance, read this quote from his post: "But if you don't want to believe any of this, that's fine. You also don't have to believe that the sun rises in the east."

**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 11:31 AM

Originally Posted by Ren

In case the OP is still reading this thread, I'm wondering what sparked your interest in the Byrdland, as opposed to exploring some of the guitars in the 24.75 scale family like the L4 or 175. This would seem to me a more gradual contrast in scale length to explore. For me, I love my L5s but it's nice to have a 175 in the family. On my bucket list is the L4, which I think of as a hybrid between the L5 and 175. I really want one of these, though I'm bummed that Gibson isn't making them with ebony fretboards anymore. (Another bucket list guitar of mine that doesn't exist is a single pup P90 ES5. Also but in a different way an L5 / 175 mixture.) I guess in general I'm interested in what motivates our guitar searches and acquisitions.

The reason behind the Byrd quest is primarily the 23.5" scale, as these old, arthritic hands are experiencing some difficulty with long stretch, piano-like chords. I own a Collings Eastside LC Deluxe which has a 24 7/8" scale. And even with that small difference, as compared to a 25.5" scale, I find it somewhat easier to achieve the desired goal.

**rlrhett** · 09-26-2016, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by plectrum99x

In any event, I should have a brand new Byrd in hand sometime this week and will be able to provide unequivocal proof, since I will be able to place the Byrd alongside an L5 CES.

Please lay it next to a guitar with a 24.75" scale for your proof. As was mentioned before, the Byrdland Scale is the 24.75" scale cut one short, not the 25.5" scale.

PS the capo idea works for the tension as well. A .012" string over 23.5" brought to 330Hz will have the same tension regardless of whether a finger is pressing it into a fret, a capo is doing it, you have a zero fret there, or it is terminated by a nut.

In my experience that is what players notice more. Short scale guitars are looser when tuned to standard pitch. Just like drop D tuning and then putting a cap on the second fret for drop E. The fret spacing, especially for related scales, is usually not noticeable.

That is not to say that switching isn't a big problem. If you are used to muscling a long scale, moving to a short scale can feel wrong. You find yourself doing unintentional micro bends and nothing sounds right. Moving to heavier strings helps.

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**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 01:21 PM

Frankly, I've grown weary of this topic, which, for myself is no longer of interest, since I have purchased a new Byrd that I should have in my hands sometime this week.

And, yes, the Byrd scale is 23.5". If you take a look at the StewMack calculator you will see that there is a difference in inter-fret distance among the various scale lengths. You may attempt to minimize this difference as inconsequential, but it is noticeable. I can feel the difference in play-ability between a 25.5" and 24 7/8" scale length.

I find it hard to comprehend why you and other post respondents encounter so much difficulty accepting that there is a difference that a capo cannot reproduce. I am neither concerned with the diminished string tension of the shorter scale, nor potential differences in tonality but, rather, the difference in the distance between adjoining frets that facilitates the stretch required by some chords.

**rlrhett** · 09-26-2016, 01:29 PM

Why do you ask questions if you are not interested in the answers of others?

I see lots of earnest answers by people tying to help answer your question. You apparently have no interest in other people's knowledge and experience.

You are not the only one finding your posts tiresome.

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**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 02:35 PM

I truly appreciate the earnest attempts to address my question, and had I not wished to seek the counsel of those with experience I would not have began this thread. And I appreciate the mathematical attempts to address the issue as well. But all of these responses appear to have ignored the simple fact that there is a difference in inter-fret distance among the various scale lengths that the use of a capo does not appear to address. Whether you choose to accept the results generated by the StewMack online calculator, or make the measurements yourself, the numbers do not lie. Here is the link once again, should you choose to have a look:
https://www.stewmac.com/FretCalculator.html

But my original concern was one of practicality, rather than of computational nature. I was concerned that switching back and forth between a long scale and short scale fingerboard might taking some getting used to. I followed the L5 capo approach, which resulted in no discernible difference when playing with or without the capo. That said, I can appreciate a definite difference when switching between my 24.88" scale Collings and a 25.5" Gibson L5 with capo in place.

So, in summary, you erroneously assumed that I was not interested in the answers of others, when the problem that I perceived was that my question was not being answered as asked.

**sgosnell** · 09-26-2016, 02:54 PM

Perception is not necessarily reality.

If you carefully measure the distance from the first fret to the 13th fret on a 24.75" scalelength guitar, then double that distance, and compare it to the Byrdland's fretboard from the nut to the 12th string, what do you find?

**JazzNote** · 09-26-2016, 02:59 PM

I do not understand the term "inter-fret distance" but what i do understand is that all fret distances are decided exclusively by the total length of the scale.

So when the L5 scale length from first fret to the bridge is equal to the shorter scale of another guitar and you put a capo on first fret of the L5, the second fret will be exactly where the other guitars first fret would be. Same with the third, this would be where the other guitars second fret is.

Equally, when the L5 scale length from second fret to bridge is equal to the shorter scale of another guitar and you put a capo on second fret of the L5, the third fret will be exactly where the other guitars first fret would be. Same with the fourth, this would be where the other guitars second fret is.

**339 in june** · 09-26-2016, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by plectrum99x

Frankly, I've grown weary of this topic, which, for myself is no longer of interest, since I have purchased a new Byrd that I should have in my hands sometime this week.

So, happy NGD to you !
Question is closed
You made the right decision.

Don't hesitate to come back with your feelings when you put your hands on it.

**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 03:33 PM

Inter-fret ... a transpositional oversight. It should have read, intra-fret, as in the distance between frets.
OK, I get it, you're anxious to prove a point, but you continue to overlook my original question and the purpose behind the thread. Please take a gander at the thread starter.

And Mr. Sgosnell fails to recognize that in the instance of fingering and picking—guitar, not one's nose—perception is what counts. Without perception and mechanical memory you would not know where the frets were without looking. Perception is what makes one appreciate a given tone where another might frown. Life is all about perception, we all see and feel things differently. So perception, at times, trumps reality.

**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by 339 in june

So, happy NGD to you !
Question is closed
You made the right decision.

Don't hesitate to come back with your feelings when you put your hands on it.

Will do, and thank you.

**JazzNote** · 09-26-2016, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by plectrum99x

OK, I get it, you're anxious to prove a point

Let's better say i'm anxious that you overlook a point ......

**plectrum99x** · 09-26-2016, 03:44 PM

No problem, consider it done.

**339 in june** · 09-26-2016, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by plectrum99x

Will do, and thank you.

Welcome !
And if you have a spare L5, don't hesitate to ship it to me.
My adress is ....

**rob taft** · 09-26-2016, 05:54 PM

I went back and today played guitars with 24" scale, 24 3/4" scale. 25" and 25 1/2". As I mentioned earlier, it takes me some time to adjust between the various scale lengths. With regard to the 24" to 25 1/2" difference. The most noticeable difference for me is in chord fingering above the 10th fret. I have long but but above average size fingers and I have to change some fingerings to sound clean in that area of the neck . For example on the 25 1/2 scale guitar, I might use two fingers to cover two strings while on the 24" I will use one if possible as two is too cramped. With regard to single notes I don't have much of a problem. Like I said earlier, of all the scale lengths I have tried I prefer 25 1/2 the most. For my hands i.e. large and long it is the most ergonomic and I prefer the snap/clarity especially on the bass strings.

That said, nut width is a bigger problem for me than scale length. My playing has evolved or degenerated to mostly finger style and I refer 1 3/4 or 1 7/8. The one guitar I own with a 24" scale is a Guild Brian May but it has a 1 3/4" nut.

**plectrum99x** · 09-28-2016, 10:50 AM

Hello,
NGD yesterday ... the 2015 Byrdland arrived, and after repositioning the bridge that had likely moved in transit, I brought it up to pitch and began the audition. Gibson Byrdland to L-5 transition and back-byrdland-jpg

Gibson Byrdland to L-5 transition and back-byrdland-jpg

Above is a photo of the Byrd at first glance.

First off, I would like to put the issue of placing a capo over the first fret of an L5 to assimilate the fret positioning of a Byrd to rest ... it doesn't appear to work. From the first to the around the 5th fret there is only a slight perceived difference in space between frets, but beyond that, the difference is significant, at least for me. Chords that required either an extreme stretch or were dismissed as beyond my limits are now either easily achieved or are within the realm—with practice—of possibility. I will not get into the beautiful tonality of this guitar both amplified and acoustically, but will save that for a later post. But I will say that I have answered my original question regarding the ease of transitioning between the 23.5" and 25.5" scale lengths. For the short time that I have had to move back and forth between the two scale lengths I have found it to be, for myself, a non-issue.

In addition, I had been asked to place the Byrd alongside the L5 for fingerboard comparison. However, after trying to achieve same, I realized that the bodies kept them so far apart as to render any photographically visible comparison less than desireable.

I am not planning to get back into the heated mathematical discussion about scale lengths, nor a debate about who is right or wrong. At this point, I believe that having both scale lengths before me is proof enough, at least for my purposes. I wish you all well and many years of happy and healthy jazzing.

**aboutIt** · 09-28-2016, 11:29 AM

If you lay the Byrdland next to Ted Nugent, you'll find that one makes a huge and beautiful sound, while the other sounds small by comparison.

**339 in june** · 09-28-2016, 05:40 PM

Nice short scale guitar. Congrats !
And you know what ?
It's not the mathematics which are important, it's the pleasure you get playing this guitar !

**feet** · 09-28-2016, 06:56 PM

i do it all the time. not a big deal, but maybe i'm just not that particular. i have basses, a 29" baritone, various 24.75s and 25.5s and a byrdland. nut widths from 1 10/16ths to 1 3/4s, and the odd classical guitar. they are all different and i do different things on them. i guess i'm not asking the same of every guitar. it can be itself and i'll figure it out. or not.

personally, i happen to like the byrdland and think it is both versatile and underrated. the closest thing to an issue i have with it is the neck pup placement in regards to my picking hand. there are many noises in there, not just jazz ones. i find it unusually comfy for a guitar that size, which i attribute to the wide/thin(ish) body. i like wrapping the strap around the front when i'm standing, too. i think that if you made it a smidge smaller, a bit thinner and slapped a regular sized neck on it, (i want to say 25.5...) you'd have a pretty interesting guitar.

**pingu** · 09-28-2016, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by feet

i do it all the time. not a big deal, but maybe i'm just not that particular. i have basses, a 29" baritone, various 24.75s and 25.5s and a byrdland. nut widths from 1 10/16ths to 1 3/4s, and the odd classical guitar. they are all different and i do different things on them. i guess i'm not asking the same of every guitar. it can be itself and i'll figure it out. or not.

personally, i happen to like the byrdland and think it is both versatile and underrated. the closest thing to an issue i have with it is the neck pup placement in regards to my picking hand. there are many noises in there, not just jazz ones. i find it unusually comfy for a guitar that size, which i attribute to the wide/thin(ish) body. i like wrapping the strap around the front when i'm standing, too. i think that if you made it a smidge smaller, a bit thinner and slapped a regular sized neck on it, (i want to say 25.5...) you'd have a pretty interesting guitar.

Like an ES275 maybe ?

**pingu** · 09-28-2016, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by plectrum99x

I am not planning to get back into the heated mathematical discussion about scale lengths, nor a debate about who is right or wrong. At this point, I believe that having both scale lengths before me is proof enough, at least for my purposes. I wish you all well and many years of happy and healthy jazzing.

Beautiful birdland man !
Like new condition
Hope it sounds and plays as great as it looks

Yeah going back n forth between scale lengths is pretty
Simple innit ?

Its Like playing in Ab then playing same thing in Bb or whatever yeah ?
I won't go I to the maths of it !

**plectrum99x** · 09-28-2016, 07:28 PM

Thank you all, and Pingu, it's not like new, it is brand new with warranty and all.
The more I play it, the more I like it. Everything is just easier and playing is more accurate. And,yes, the tone is smooth and warm through a tube amp (Rivera 55/15 Jazz Suprema) and almost as good through an SS amp/speaker (AI Clarus and Buscarino Chameleon).

**pingu** · 09-28-2016, 07:45 PM

Oh OK it is new .... Sorry

**plectrum99x** · 09-28-2016, 11:06 PM

No problem.

**customxke** · 09-28-2016, 11:58 PM

Here's my 56 es175, and my 57 Byrdland necks. Lining up the nut of the Byrdland with the the first fret of the 175, and the frets all line up. Capoing the 175 at the first fret gives you the same space between frets, and same scale length as a Byrdland.