Gibson L-5ces and L-5 Wes Montgomery - Differences?

**2bornot2bop** · 08-22-2016, 04:07 PM

I have the greatest respect for all the players here. Each of you is very humble, and have forgotten more about jazz guitar and guitar playing than I could ever hope to learn.

But if a guy with an audio ear can hear the difference between an L5 Wesmo and a L5CES, I'd be very surprised if those of you who are much more familiar with guitar than I am can't hear the difference.

I think perhaps the difference between us is, you've the actual playing experience to coax, or create, the beefiness from an L5Wesmo, where I lacked the playing skill to do so. And that's very unfortunate for me because the WesMo was THE guitar I wanted to keep forever...until "I" heard it. But at the end of the day I could not deny what my ear was telling me. From the first G13 chord the 'CES duplicated a similar tone I'd heard on albums...and it was smokey. I couldn't get beyond the brightness with the Wesmo...I tried the TOM and Ebony saddles...the results were the same. At the time of that acquisition, and still today, I criticize my lack of experience more than the guitar...how can you fault an L5 Wesmo....that's like blasphemy!

**Bluedawg** · 08-22-2016, 06:13 PM

I guess I'm the odd man out here .... I prefer the WES ...

It's definitely a brighter guitar than my L5CES and I'm sure I'm compensating with tone controls for the extra brightness ... but there are other tonal properties in there that I like

I've had my WES for about 5 years now so it has also opened up acoustically ... maybe not the volume of a dedicated acoustic, but nice none the less

Of course a good CES really is as good as "they" say it is IMHO

And the amp you plug into can make a difference in which sounds better ... IMHO

**2bornot2bop** · 08-22-2016, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

My L-5 Wesmo is a decent acoustic guitar with a wooden bridge saddle. With the stock TOM, it was pretty dead. It is an amazing guitar (1996 IIRC) in my least favorite finish (Wine red). I got a great deal on it second hand and at the time figured that I would trade it for a blond or sunburst L-5 (one or two pickup model). But it is great sounding and plays as nicely as any guitar that I have ever played, so it is my "keeper for life" L-5.

Like Fender, I think Gibson makes great electric guitars. They used to make great acoustic guitars, but quite honestly, I have been unimpressed with their acoustic guitars for sometime, both flattops and archtops. They started making the archtops less acoustic in the late 50's and lets face it, these "electric" archtops do have the sound we all associate with jazz guitar. I think their flattops have been built heavier since the early 60's as well (for business reasons) and are not as acoustically alive as they once were. If you want a truly live flattop, buy a Martin. They still make them like they always have (I guess being a family owned firm, they have the luxury of building great acoustic guitars, not guitars built to satisfy stockholders and bean counters or greedy CEO's).

Here is a video of Andreas Oberg playing my L-5 Wesmo (I am comping next to him on my Maple Dupont Gypsy guitar):

if only I'd have known you then SS. I'd have taken the ferry to Langley! Good stuff!

**Greentone** · 08-22-2016, 07:50 PM

I thought that the wine red Wes that Jack Zucker had up for sale last year sounded derned good. I'd have been very happy with that one. You do find one, now and again, that just exudes jazz, jazz, jazz. Jack's Wes did.

More regularly, however, you will find a 2 pickup CES that does so.

Try it and see.

**Frank67** · 08-22-2016, 08:22 PM

Wow, Öberg is really burning there.

**Dennis D** · 08-22-2016, 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

Wow, Öberg is really burning there.

Curious -is it me, or was he really loud ? That's the second clip of his I've seen and he was an ear buster on that one too.....

**Greentone** · 08-22-2016, 10:44 PM

Overt is playing very confidently in front of Coryell, who eats mid-career burners for a snack if they're not careful.

**Greentone** · 08-22-2016, 10:45 PM

Ahh...auto-correct

**Stringswinger** · 08-23-2016, 12:51 AM

I introduced Andreas Oberg to Larry Coryell. Let me tell you, Larry was very, very impressed.

**Groyniad** · 08-23-2016, 05:06 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

But why? Whyyyyy? Whyyyyyyy? WHYYYYYYY?

Why do they sell the heavy quiet guitar with no pickup for 10 thousand dollar??? Why????

There are some things man is not meant to know.

I think the Gibson Corporation has been taken over by Azathoth, the Blind Idiot God. 'the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space.'

It's the only explanation that makes any sense to me.

i tried one carefully (an L5 P) - along with the other two types. i was impressed by its 'solidity' - it wasn't that it felt heavy and unresponsive - it felt strong and thick.

whilst the ofer clip is very striking - lovely sensitive playing that genuinely uses the voice of that guitar - its also very clear that the sound is 'fine' or 'refined' or - 'thin' - thin and metallic and stringy. the L5 P was quiter, less responsive, less projection, but despite being an acoustic archtop it delivered a fat full warm thick voice that put you in mind more of the wooden body of the guitar than the metal strings attached to it.

wanting the thick fat clarity of the CES i was not remotely tempted by the P - but i thought it was the most appealing acoustic archtop i'd ever tried.

i'm not going for something authentic here - i just don't like the classic thirties stringy sound (though i do like ofer's playing a lot) - but i like the idea of an unamplified archtop.

so what gibson are doing is producing a modern acoustic archtop - and i think its seriously appealing. it gives up volume and projection for fatness and friendliness. (and the tom is essential to this - the sustain is heavenly - and it rescues enough clarity and definition to make it easy to hear despite its low volume)

**Frank67** · 08-23-2016, 07:35 AM

I hear you Groyniad ... But for me personally low volume in an acoustic guitar just throws me off. I will instinctively try to pick harder to get anything out and the result is not pretty. I played a few flattops in a store lately and among them the iconic Gibson J200 (or so, i am not knowledgeable about flattops). Put it down after a minute or so just because I found it disapointing that so little came out of such a big guitar (the best of the bunch was a Martin - consistent with the discussion here). If I have a 17" body, I expect some volume at least ... Might be silly on my part, but I can't get past it somehow. I have made peace with the low acoustic volume of the electric Gibson archtops given their glorious amplified tone ... On an acoustic instrument I don't think I could (would put a pickup on right away :-))

**2bornot2bop** · 08-23-2016, 09:47 AM

And the fact Vinny knows guitars and returned his immediately turns me off. A no volume acoustic is laughable. Duh

**christianm77** · 08-23-2016, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Ahh...auto-correct

I will call him Andreas Overt from henceforth

**John A.** · 08-23-2016, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by FrankLearns

I hear you Groyniad ... But for me personally low volume in an acoustic guitar just throws me off. I will instinctively try to pick harder to get anything out and the result is not pretty. I played a few flattops in a store lately and among them the iconic Gibson J200 (or so, i am not knowledgeable about flattops). Put it down after a minute or so just because I found it disapointing that so little came out of such a big guitar (the best of the bunch was a Martin - consistent with the discussion here). If I have a 17" body, I expect some volume at least ... Might be silly on my part, but I can't get past it somehow. I have made peace with the low acoustic volume of the electric Gibson archtops given their glorious amplified tone ... On an acoustic instrument I don't think I could (would put a pickup on right away :-))

J200's are not known for being super loud -- their whole thing is the fullness of the bass tone, which complements voices and sits in an ensemble in a particular way. Martins (assuming you mean a dreadnought) were invented to be heard over banjos and fiddles (they were nicknamed "banjo-killers" by bluegrass players); they have a characteristic 'scooped' frequency response and tight bass that cut through a big group really loud. I'm not sure, but I think there might be more total dB's coming out of a J200 for a given input than a D-28, a but D-28's frequency response makes it seem louder. As to whether louder is better in a flattop, I really think it depends on what you're doing, and if singing (or accompanying a singer), the nature of the voice. E.g., 0-variant Martin for a solo, quiet-voiced finger-picker, Rev. Gary + a J 200, Doc Watson + a dread. Gibson dreads (especially the round-shoulder ones) tend to sit somewhere between 0-variants and D's. A lot of Piedmont-style finger-pickers prefer them.

John

**garybaldy** · 02-28-2019, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dennis D

Curious -is it me, or was he really loud ? That's the second clip of his I've seen and he was an ear buster on that one too.....

He's only doing what Django did when plugged into an amp.

**Cincy2** · 03-01-2019, 08:00 AM

I just wanted to jump in here and thank all of you for the very useful insight on these two model guitars. I was going to get one but wasn't sure which. Based on your opinions, I felt the L-5 CES was right for me. I just received it and I'm thrilled. It's all about that tone we have in our heads. I can produce it easily on this guitar. Better skilled players and amp technicians could probably do it with the Wes version also (or any archtop) but I'm happy I chose the CES. I love this forum. Thanks guys/gals.

Eric