Is peerless the closest we have to a Gibson ES-175 clone?

[joaopaz]

I don't have sound right now so can't check the YT videos, but with so many guitars mentioned here I figure it won't do harm to throw in another couple.

I don't know how close/far these are, but as I have two The Loars and really dig them, namely the sound - and since you mentioned a "travel" guitar...

The Loar - Archtop Cutaway LH-1280-CBK (setup and fretjob done in the US)
or its cheaper counterpart
The Loar - Archtop Cutaway LH-280C

[jazz.fred]

I played a Peerless Gigmaster Jazz at GnJ and liked it a lot. Finally settled on a Peerless Monarch 16. Did the Gigmaster sound like a 175? I can't say. I evaluate an instrument based on its own intrinsic tone and playability, rather than its ability to sound like something else.

I do believe that Peerless makes very nice guitars at affordable prices.

Afterthought:

This thread contains the only negative comments I've read/heard regarding the Epi 175 Premium.

[Durban]

best archtop i know that isn't a 175 and is typically cheaper is a gb10

in production since 78 because it works so well.

i agree i had 2 eastman AR37's although very good value for money are not close to Gibson or Ibanez

My GB10 with 13 chromes heavy tension is insanely easy and comfortable to play

on the neck pup the tone is fatter warm jazzier than my ES165 Killer guitar, i have an 83 AS200 also good but the body is comfortable but collides with the place i store beer you get the picture.


Eastman exceptional good value but something missing. oh aslo the neck is slightly wider,
i dont buy into that it is more comfy. IT IS WIDER at 12 going up very comfortable to play though. light

[Jx30510]

I've got an 81' AS200. It's a wonderful sounding guitar but I find it really heavy and hard to play in sitting position, pretty neck heavy, it tends to stretch your hole body forwards.
And I agree, it hurts the belly and the ribs. It's the most "imposing" guitar I own

[m_d]

i agree i had 2 eastman AR37's although very good value for money are not close to Gibson or Ibanez

My GB10 with 13 chromes heavy tension is insanely easy and comfortable to play

on the neck pup the tone is fatter warm jazzier than my ES165 Killer guitar, i have an 83 AS200 also good but the body is comfortable but collides with the place i store beer you get the picture.


Eastman exceptional good value but something missing. oh aslo the neck is slightly wider,
i dont buy into that it is more comfy. IT IS WIDER at 12 going up very comfortable to play though. light

I don't buy that for a number of reasons. Eastmans are hand-made to very high standards ; their flattops are considered equal to 3x pricier models, why would their archtops be different? People will buy or try scores of es175s before declaring one the Holy Grail, or compare an old, played in instrument, with a brand new instrument which they flip after a couple of weeks. I don't believe there's any mystery recipe exclusive to Gibson, there's no reason whatsoever why an Eastman or an Archtop Tribute can't be as good as a 175.

[Jx30510]

That's the whole question. Why are Gibson guitars so pricey? Is there a real reason? Higher quality wood? Better components?
At a certain point yes I suppose, but at a certain point, above 3000€ I don't really understand what can 5000€ more can justify a better guitar, appart fancy appointments that have nothing to do with sound quality?
If I could find the best instrument ever, in terms of sound and playability, with zero bling-bling, I'd go for it,

[agentsmith]

Disagree... Eastmans use totally different construction, totally different wood types finishes, top thicknesses, etc. The 371/372 sound *NOTHING* like a good 175. I have owned gibson 175s from literally every decade from '50s to late model 2010s. I have played a half dozen 371/372 guitars and none of them come close to a gibson vibe.

And sorry but their nice acoustics are not in the same league with a martin either. I've owned both and I know the difference. They are great guitars for the money but let's get real here...

Archtop tribute may be another story because certain factories in Japan who have been making guitars for decades have come a lot closer to gibsons and I wouldn't be surprised at all if an AT guitar sounded like a 175.

My Aria Herb Ellis has much more of a 175 tone than the 371/372 guitars FWIW but it's still not a 175...

I don't buy that for a number of reasons. Eastmans are hand-made to very high standards ; their flattops are considered equal to 3x pricier models, why would their archtops be different? People will buy or try scores of es175s before declaring one the Holy Grail, or compare an old, played in instrument, with a brand new instrument which they flip after a couple of weeks. I don't believe there's any mystery recipe exclusive to Gibson, there's no reason whatsoever why an Eastman or an Archtop Tribute can't be as good as a 175.

[Jx30510]

And so what do you think of the Es 175 Epi premium agentsmith? Have you compared it with a Gibson, since you seem to have good knowledge on the subject

[lawson-stone]

That's the whole question. Why are Gibson guitars so pricey? Is there a real reason? Higher quality wood? Better components?
At a certain point yes I suppose, but at a certain point, above 3000€ I don't really understand what can 5000€ more can justify a better guitar, appart fancy appointments that have nothing to do with sound quality?
If I could find the best instrument ever, in terms of sound and playability, with zero bling-bling, I'd go for it,

Pricing is complex. It's supply and demand, and demand is driven by actual quality, scarcity, and perceived quality. If you really think you can add up the cost of components, add in labor, and price in some operating expenses and "justify" the cost of a Gibson, you'll fail. Nobody is trying to "justify" the cost of a Gibson. It costs what it costs. If nobody bought them, either the price would come down or they'd stop making them. I gave up a long time ago trying to quantify, analyze, and "justify" (to whom??) the prices of Gibsons, and just faced the fact that (a) I really wanted a Gibson ES165/175 guitar and (b) I could go with a very good copy of an L5ces. I ended up with both the 165 and 175, and 2 nice L5ces copies, and I'm happy as a clam. I'd love a "real" L5ces some day, but my Epiphone Elitist Broadway and Aria pro II PE180 fill the bill nicely for now.

[m_d]

Disagree... Eastmans use totally different construction, totally different wood types finishes, top thicknesses, etc. The 371/372 sound *NOTHING* like a good 175. I have owned gibson 175s from literally every decade from '50s to late model 2010s. I have played a half dozen 371/372 guitars and none of them come close to a gibson vibe.

And sorry but their nice acoustics are not in the same league with a martin either. I've owned both and I know the difference. They are great guitars for the money but let's get real here...

Archtop tribute may be another story because certain factories in Japan who have been making guitars for decades have come a lot closer to gibsons and I wouldn't be surprised at all if an AT guitar sounded like a 175.

My Aria Herb Ellis has much more of a 175 tone than the 371/372 guitars FWIW but it's still not a 175...

Many would disagree with you, I've come across many testimonials from people who found an Eastman to be equal to a Martin or a Gibson, for instance Jon Herrington of Steely Dan fame. More generally, given the quality of guitars these days, I tend to think the obsession with the perfect axe is a fool's errand. I'm convinced that if you're good enough, dream axes will fall into your lap anyway - Julian Lage being an example. With all that said, it's already 2017 here, so happy new year to you and the wonderful Jazz Guitar Forum.

[agentsmith]

And so what do you think of the Es 175 Epi premium agentsmith? Have you compared it with a Gibson, since you seem to have good knowledge on the subject

Yes, I have. It's a decent guitar but not really close to a 175. The only 2 guitars I've heard that cop a 175 vibe are the Ibanez PM100 and the Aria Herb Ellis. The Ibanez sounds very good but not as woody or transparent as a 175 but it's definitely in the same family. The herb ellis is also in the same family but is tighter and brighter sounding. Neither have the thunk or woody vibe of a real 175.

I also don't think the '90s through modern 175s sound like "real" 175s. Gibson has gradually made the construction more and more robust which is good for them in terms of warranty fulfillment but in terms of tone, way out of the sweetspot.

The problem with many of the so called 175 clones like the 371, Painter, Holst and others is that they are too resonant. They all try to improve the sound of the 175 but improvement is in the eye of the beholder. IMO, it's impossible to improve upon a sound that's accepted as classic because the accepted standard is documented in so many recordings. For example, the Joe Pass tone on "Joy Spring" just cannot be duplicated without a 175 IMO although I've heard some great recordings of the Trenier that sound very 175-esque.

This is the classic 175 tone. You cannot get this out of a 371.

[lawson-stone]

Yes, I have. It's a decent guitar but not really close to a 175. The only 2 guitars I've heard that cop a 175 vibe are the Ibanez PM100 and the Aria Herb Ellis. The Ibanez sounds very good but not as woody or transparent as a 175 but it's definitely in the same family. The herb ellis is also in the same family but is tighter and brighter sounding. Neither have the thunk or woody vibe of a real 175.

I also don't think the '90s through modern 175s sound like "real" 175s. Gibson has gradually made the construction more and more robust which is good for them in terms of warranty fulfillment but in terms of tone, way out of the sweetspot.

The problem with many of the so called 175 clones like the 371, Painter, Holst and others is that they are too resonant. They all try to improve the sound of the 175 but improvement is in the eye of the beholder. IMO, it's impossible to improve upon a sound that's accepted as classic because the accepted standard is documented in so many recordings. For example, the Joe Pass tone on "Joy Spring" just cannot be duplicated without a 175 IMO although I've heard some great recordings of the Trenier that sound very 175-esque.

This is the classic 175 tone. You cannot get this out of a 371.

Funny how on the album cover he's not holding an ES175. I know it has nothing to do with what he plays but it's still interesting to note.


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[agentsmith]

that's because in that era album covers were often just thrown together by the recording company via stock photos they had of the artists. It's not like today where there's an entire PR team designing the artists' wardrobe.

Funny how on the album cover he's not holding an ES175. I know it has nothing to do with what he plays but it's still interesting to note.


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[lawson-stone]

Still I'm curious-what guitar is that exactly?


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[Little Jay]

It's an Epiphone, but I can't see exactly what model. Maybe the Joe Pass? ;-)

[Cunamara]

Still I'm curious-what guitar is that?

According to an interview I read with Joe's accompanist John Pisano, that guitar is a 40s Epiphone (Deluxe, IIRC) that had been Pisano's dad's guitar. Joe liked the guitar a lot and would often opt to play it when Pisano brought it to recording sessions.

[lawson-stone]

According to an interview I read with Joe's accompanist John Pisano, that guitar is a 40s Epiphone (Deluxe, IIRC) that had been Pisano's dad's guitar. Joe liked the guitar a lot and would often opt to play it when Pisano brought it to recording sessions.

So it's an acoustic; from that era I'm wondering what acoustic tracks featured that guitar. We can hear it for sure on Summer Nights and Appassionato, but for earlier?

[Stringswinger]

So it's an acoustic; from that era I'm wondering what acoustic tracks featured that guitar. We can hear it for sure on Summer Nights and Appassionato, but for earlier?

That picture looks to be from a later era than the album. Perhaps the picture is from a later reissue?

I talked to John Pisano some years ago about that Epi. It was a 40's Deluxe that Joe was very fond of and Joe used it on a few 90's albums. When the Joy Spring album was recorded, Joe was playing his 62 175 almost all of the time. There are some pictures of Joe from that era in the studio playing an ES3xx semi hollow as well. And he did play other guitars on the Pacific Jazz days on recordings (IIRC, one of those records has him playing movie themes on some kind of 12 string).

Back on point, I have never played a 175 clone that I liked enough to own. I own two 175's (a 63 and a 97) and have owned several more (68, 70, 77, 82, 2004) and have played dozens of others. All were somewhat different. The early ones are more lightly built and the later ones are heavier and darker. My experience is they started getting heavier in the 70's, not the 90's and in fact, my 97 is a lighter guitar than my 77 or my 82 was. The Gibson 175 does have a "vibe". The clones are different and do not have that vibe. The Ibanez PM and the Aria HE are fine guitars, worthy jazz guitars to be sure, but they are not Gibson ES-175s.

If a 175 sound is the goal, get a Gibson ES-175. You do get what you pay for in this life.

[Stringswinger]

Doing some web research, that album cover seems to date from 1996. I have found a couple of 1981 album covers as well (one Pacific Jazz, one Blue Note). I know that it was recorded in 1964. Was Joy Spring released in 1964? Was 1981 the original release date of this recording? Does anyone here have an original 1964 copy? What does the 1964 album cover look like? Another Joe pass Mystery (like his missing 62 ES-175). The plot thickens....

[lawson-stone]

Doing some web research, that album cover seems to date from 1996. I have found a couple of 1981 album covers as well (one Pacific Jazz, one Blue Note). I know that it was recorded in 1964. Was Joy Spring released in 1964? Was 1981 the original release date of this recording? Does anyone here have an original 1964 copy? What does the 1964 album cover look like? Another Joe pass Mystery (like his missing 62 ES-175). The plot thickens....

It looks like in fact the album was not issued until 1981, even though it was recorded in 1964.

Imagine what it would be like to play that 62 ES175! Maybe the guitar itself is nothing extraordinary, but to play the guitar that played "For Django" would be amazing!

[Herbie]

It looks like in fact the album was not issued until 1981, even though it was recorded in 1964.

This is confusing but apparently true. According to some sources it was not released until 1995!

When did it became a classic? Or is it a classic just on this forum, because of the guitar sound?!

They did not release Joy Spring in 60's but they released an Joe Pass album of Rolling Stones covers (Stones Jazz) and a compilation of his versions of top ten hits of that time (Sign Of The Times). Interesting A&R work!

The guitar is important in Pass's sound but don't forget the half cut plectrum. Small pick sounds different than a bigger one. Has anybody seen a pic in which direction did Joe cut his pick, vertically or horizontally?

[goldenwave77]

For years and years, BlueNote was able to release a lot of albums which never sold a lot of units.

IMO, their business plan was really smart--very low overhead production cost: the recording studio--in some guy's living room (the VanGelder house in Teaneck); liner notes done at minimal cost by writers/journalists who loved the music, and cover photos sometimes done by photography students. I heard them broadcast in the 70's on WRVR (live jazz 24/7) in NYC, and the college radio stations about 4-6 hrs./week: WKCR (Columbia), WFDU (Fairleigh Dickinson Univ.) and the Fordham college radio station.

As far as I can tell, some of the vinyl LP's never were reissued when Blue Note got bought by Capitol, and I'm not sure a lot of them ever made it to CD.

I can tell you this--the quality of the artists and releases was really high. You took far less risk buying something off of Blue Note. In the list of the 50 or so largest selling albums in jazz history, there are very few Blue Notes, and there was a thread about this list. Large, large # of fusion and cross-over albums.

Moby Dick sold something like 586 copies when originally published, but when "it is a dreary dark November in my soul" I don't go off a whaling (like Ishmael, the main character), but I pick it up, and re-read its extravagant genius.

[lawson-stone]

This is confusing but apparently true. According to some sources it was not released until 1995!

When did it became a classic? Or is it a classic just on this forum, because of the guitar sound?!

They did not release Joy Spring in 60's but they released an Joe Pass album of Rolling Stones covers (Stones Jazz) and a compilation of his versions of top ten hits of that time (Sign Of The Times). Interesting A&R work!

The guitar is important in Pass's sound but don't forget the half cut plectrum. Small pick sounds different than a bigger one. Has anybody seen a pic in which direction did Joe cut his pick, vertically or horizontally?

They also released a couple of soft-jazz-pop albums with him that IMNSHO are actually pretty good, Signs of the Times (Okay, the vocal chorus sucks...) and Simplicity. "Who Can I Turn To" on the latter is a really nice cover of a great song.

[lawson-stone]

For years and years, BlueNote was able to release a lot of albums which never sold a lot of units.

IMO, their business plan was really smart--very low overhead production cost: the recording studio--in some guy's living room (the VanGelder house in Teaneck); liner notes done at minimal cost by writers/journalists who loved the music, and cover photos sometimes done by photography students. I heard them broadcast in the 70's on WRVR (live jazz 24/7) in NYC, and the college radio stations about 4-6 hrs./week: WKCR (Columbia), WFDU (Fairleigh Dickinson Univ.) and the Fordham college radio station.

As far as I can tell, some of the vinyl LP's never were reissued when Blue Note got bought by Capitol, and I'm not sure a lot of them ever made it to CD.

I can tell you this--the quality of the artists and releases was really high. You took far less risk buying something off of Blue Note. In the list of the 50 or so largest selling albums in jazz history, there are very few Blue Notes, and there was a thread about this list. Large, large # of fusion and cross-over albums.

Moby Dick sold something like 586 copies when originally published, but when "it is a dreary dark November in my soul" I don't go off a whaling (like Ishmael, the main character), but I pick it up, and re-read its extravagant genius.

Not only do I agree, but somehow, I love the way you've expressed this.

Like they said in the movie, "Nobody talks that way anymore!"

But I wish they did...

[joaopaz]

For years and years, BlueNote was able to release a lot of albums which never sold a lot of units.

IMO, their business plan was really smart--very low overhead production cost: the recording studio--in some guy's living room (the VanGelder house in Teaneck); liner notes done at minimal cost by writers/journalists who loved the music, and cover photos sometimes done by photography students. I heard them broadcast in the 70's on WRVR (live jazz 24/7) in NYC, and the college radio stations about 4-6 hrs./week: WKCR (Columbia), WFDU (Fairleigh Dickinson Univ.) and the Fordham college radio station.

As far as I can tell, some of the vinyl LP's never were reissued when Blue Note got bought by Capitol, and I'm not sure a lot of them ever made it to CD.

I can tell you this--the quality of the artists and releases was really high. You took far less risk buying something off of Blue Note. In the list of the 50 or so largest selling albums in jazz history, there are very few Blue Notes, and there was a thread about this list. Large, large # of fusion and cross-over albums.

Moby Dick sold something like 586 copies when originally published, but when "it is a dreary dark November in my soul" I don't go off a whaling (like Ishmael, the main character), but I pick it up, and re-read its extravagant genius.

If you guys are into Blue Note and vinyl, do check the MusicMatters releases! Blue Note Records Vinyl Reissue Albums | Music Matters Jazz
They're expensive but absolutely amazing in every detail.
Also with today's "white-label" releases of LPs being simply copies of CDs, it's great to find a company that goes the exta (long!) mile and goes to the original tapes.
I have a few and whenever I put one of those to spin everyone in the house goes "wow, what a sound, what's that?"