Vintage German Archtops

[jim777]

The guitar is a Neubauer, and being made sometime in the 50's seems likely. I also thought it was quite beautiful, and have had several Neubauers before that were nice-sounding guitars acoustically. The neck was a fairly ample C shape, big but not unwieldy. I owned this guitar before it was bought by the British collector, and at least at that time it had neck problems (side-to-side slant) that are the reason I no longer own it. My advice would be to play it before making a decision to buy, regardless of how enticing it looks.

Thanks for this! He does state the guitar has had a neck reset "at some time", but that appears to mean that the reset was done prior to his ownership. Being I am in New Jersey and the guitar appears to be in the UK, I will give it a pass.

[Ol' Fret]

Below the two possible hollow-body guitar body wedge shapes - seen from the side - starting from the first, basic shape with constant depth of the sides, top and back edges being parallel.

All are being used. The second and third shape is more commonly found on flat-top guitars.
The third shape is found on some violins and many cellos, though as a matter of fact their shape is more complicated and elaborated than shown here in a simplified form. This is an extra work step, so they do it for a reason - while most players wouldn't even notice it.

Sorry for double-posting of the pixx - that actual attachment management is crappy!

[Ol' Fret]

The Höfner Jazzica body wedge is very unusual.
Does Höfner still build higher-value bowed stringed instruments? They should have known better; all in my opinion, of course.

[Ol' Fret]

I have seen Joe Kienemann mentioned as well. I know him as radio host of the jazz programs of Bavarian public radio but AFAIK he is retired since several years. Yes, long gone are those days before my time when Munich was one of the jazz capitals of Europe. A friend of mine who plays jazz now after a career as a world class classical guitarist (look for "José Salpietro, Aires Cubanos, Guitarra" on YouTube) studied with Mal Waldron as a teenager for a while during the time the latter was living in Munich. But even I myself, born 1973, have seen many places go in the last 20 years (not only jazz -- rock, hiphop, reggae, blues, cafés that had open stages once a week etc.; there was a rumour recently that Gloria wants to give up the Hide Out 2 just around the corner from me, Munich's last blues place after the Alfonso's closed).

Meanwhile I dare to play at the Vogler's Tuesday sessions that were unfortunately canceled for last and next Tuesday. The athmosphere is more welcoming there than at Unterfahrt on Sundays. Manouche fans can go to Diba café on Wednesdays and recently I discovered the Blue Monday session at Rheinpfalz. (Peter Tuscher does the booking there AFAIK.)

To get back to the original topic of this thread: A collector of obscure string instruments is Titus Waldenfels. Unfortunately the Guitar Gallery from his old website is not working in the Internet Archive other than the thumbnails.

Mal Waldron was one of my favorite piano players. I still own many of his recordings - many of these are only available in the USA or in Japan. And I'm still a fan of Bobby Jones' tenor sax playing,

Costa Lukacs's infinitely inspired guitar playing,

Peter O'Mara or Geoff Goodman

Peter Tuscher and Karl Ratzer, and many more.

Didn't know that Titus Waldenfels is a collector, but certainly like his more unconventional musical tributes. There was a crazy guitar and related gear collector in Munich - he sadly passed away several years ago - whose large flat was full: guitars leaned against all the walls, valuable vintage instruments stacked on top of each other on the floor, expensive vintage tube amps on the balcony. The most serious GAS ...

As an older white man I simply refuse to complain more about the disappearance of the jazz culture. It doesn't help ... now that I can only be found in Munich now and then. For everything there is a season.

[Hammertone]

<< Serial #? The Jazzica Custom acquired a solid spruce carved top @2000. Thomas did not start signing the labels until a few years later. ...>>The serial # starts with a 3, so the guitar was probably made in 1993. As I mentioned I'm far away from being a Höfner guitar expert (I even don't like to become one anytime soon ... and how I detest the inflationary term expert), but, in my simple-minded Höfner understanding, the Jazzicas were launched around 1989, all these early models came with laminated spruce tops, developed later into the Jazzica Special and then the Jazzica Custom around 2000.
This 1993 guitar shows - besides the serial # - just "Jazzica" on the label, no signature, no "Special", though it has an (original) ebony fretboard that were the standard on the Specials and Customs. Cross-bracing, no linings at all! - I understand that they turned to conventional kerfed linings later on. I've only seen one archtop guitar without lining so far: an early, cheap Japanese model.

Yes, that's 1993. Fake abalone purfling, rounded ends to the fretboard, Shadow pickup. The model got some significant changes when it became the "Custom" in @2000, including a carved solid spruce top, although it took awhile for them to sort out the problematic finish. Originally, the rims were very thick, so no kerfing was necessary. Among my first recommendations when I started working with them was to make the rims much thinner and to add kerfing, which they did. By the mid-oughts, much less finish was (typically) used, and the Jazzica Custom was a much improved guitar compared to its decade-older sibling.

Violin varnish on guitars? I haven't come across any true violin varnish on an archtop guitar worthy of that name during the last 5 decades. They may market and sell it as violin varnish, but even when it's one of these cheap alcohol-based shellac finishs, it has not much to do with true varnish. A real French polish is an art of intense handcraft and much too expensive for offering on low- or mid-prized, even on many top-priced archtop guitars. Also, the ground for the finish (if they care at all) is completely different. ... I see the term violin varnish on archtop guitars as an economical attempt to copy the appearance of true varnish - I'd agree though with the term mock or pseudo violin varnish.

I agree. How about just calling it a shellac finish?

Below the two possible hollow-body guitar body wedge shapes - seen from the side - starting from the first, basic shape with constant depth of the sides, top and back edges being parallel. All are being used. The second and third shape is more commonly found on flat-top guitars. The third shape is found on some violins and many cellos, though as a matter of fact their shape is more complicated and elaborated than shown here in a simplified form. This is an extra work step, so they do it for a reason - while most players wouldn't even notice it.

So... what do the curved lines with the dots represent?

[Bop Head]

So... what do the curved lines with the dots represent?

90 degree angles

[Gladders]

Right angles

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

[Hammertone]

Duh, OK. What's the issue with that?

[Ol' Fret]

Duh, OK. What's the issue with that?

Issue, what issue?
Cool one, HT!
More or less what I've been expecting in my post #225 and earlier (it definitely feels wrong to repeat myself!): As I said above, I'm not willing to discuss such topics in a forum ...

[Hammertone]

The wedge-shape of the body (about 11cm at the tail and 6cm at the neck) looks classy and could be great, but they choose to chamfer the sides exclusively at the side of the back, which is wrong, IMHO. Cellos (or violins) often have a small wedge shape as well; cellos on average about 5mm, with large individual differences, of course. But all these instruments show the wedge shape at the top side, for some reason, general stiffness and the position of the neck - too off topic to discuss in this forum...

...What's the issue with that?

Issue, what issue? Cool one, HT! More or less what I've been expecting in my post #225 and earlier (it definitely feels wrong to repeat myself!): As I said above, I'm not willing to discuss such topics in a forum ...

OK, send me a private note or email. I want to understand why you think this is wrong.

[RJVB]

The third shape is found on some violins and many cellos

In cellos this would probably be a functional, subtle equivalent of the Manzer wedge, giving the player a bit easier access to the higher reaches of the fingerboard. Or at least those players who don't use one of those crazy endpins that puts the instrument "almost" horizontal.

I too don't see why it'd be wrong to have the wedge made only by the back; I think that (or a version where it's *mostly* by the back) is what you see most often in big flat-tops.

Ole: just explaining briefly why you think it's wrong does not oblige you to enter in any subsequent discussion about it. In particular if the "IMHO" above implies you just thinks that it looks wrong, in which case there isn't even anything to discuss

[Jurassicstrat]

Hi folks, I'm new to this forum, and I'm deeply impressed with all the things you know about these old guitars!

Might I ask your help with identifying the maker/model of this old guitar?

I bought it may years ago as a "1960s German archtop guitar" because I liked the look and the sound, but there is no stamp or label anywhere.
In fact, it must have been reworked and even repainted at some point, and some parts may have been replaced.
On the net I found a "Juwel" with a walnut body that looks quite similar (Juwel Vintage Archtop Guitar From 1950 Walnut Brown | Reverb), but other parts look more like parts that Hoyer used (e.g. Arnold Hoyer Esquire Natural 1950s&apos;60s Archtop Hollow Body Acoustic Guitar | eBay). For the headstock, I can't find a similar one anywhere.
Has anyone ever seen a similar guitar, or do you think it was maybe pieced together from different bits and pieces?

I'd be happy and grateful if you could help me with this one :-)


Cheers, Stratty

[Flowboy]

Hi, can't help other than to say both the Juwei & the Hoyer appear to have solid carved spruce tops whereas yours is laminated. Your top may even have a coloured woodstain or varnish to paler underlying timber. One pic isn't much to go on! Good Luck, there are some knowledgeable folk on here.

[Ol' Fret]

Ole: just explaining briefly why you think it's wrong does not oblige you to enter in any subsequent discussion about it. In particular if the "IMHO" above implies you just thinks that it looks wrong, in which case there isn't even anything to discuss

RJVB, I would understand some opinions as food for own thought - what about discussing some thoughts and insights, new and old ones, with yourself?
The very own interpretation of logic "in which case there isn't even anything to discuss" overwhelms my simple mind:
So, if I don't recognize things myself, then they basically can't exist? Huh? I could only follow this logic if I denied the existence of things in general (like here about mechanics and ergonomics / human feeling), e. g. being a nihilist.

It makes existence both saddening and charming at the same time that there are simple or more complex things under heaven that cannot be described or discussed in a halfway satisfactory way either in textform, especially in a different language, or in sketches. It's a bit like describing the feeling of love. And there's the basic crux of discussions in web forums: one person tries to explain or point to something, the next rudely brushes it off the table with the deadpan argument "Nope"; but there can be worlds of difference in perception and experience between the two.

It also doesn't seem to be easy to accept what I said before - in clear anticipation of the failure that would follow - namely the request to deepen certain things only with guitars, or guitar parts, in hand.

[Ol' Fret]

Stewing again over some fotos of early German vintage electric guitars like the following one (courtesy HR on KAPITEL02 BERLINER ZEIT / GERMAN- CARVE / MARKNEUKIRCHEN – Roger Schlaggitarren ):


It shows Wenzel Rossmeisl with some of his guitars for sale at the Music Fair (probably in Leipzig) in 1950.
It is likely that the model marked by the red arrow is a solidbody or, at least, very thin chambered electric model made by Wenzel and his son.
This photo would confirm that Roger, despite all the adverse consequences in a country devastated by war, was by no means behind Leo Fender in terms of time - not at all!

For anyone interested in this small and specialized field:
A very well-researched dissertation was published in 2023 by Dr. Lena Böhme with the title [translated] "Electric and electrified guitars in the German Reich until the end of the Second World War".
It's in German language only, but a small abstract in English can be found here (scroll down): Qucosa - Leipzig: Elektrische und elektrifizierte Gitarren im Deutschen Reich bis zum Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs
Lena found some surprising remarkable sources ... eg when claiming that of particular interest would be the renewed mention of the Roger pickup in the [cited] report on the 1940 [sic!] Fall Fair, as this would prove the possibility and existence of electrified archtop guitars before 1945.


The dissertation contains some new and amazing findings, although a few postulated points remain questionable (e.g. the alleged production capacities of Franz Hirsch in his Schönbach era). The full text of the dissertation:
ul.qucosa.de/api/qucosa%3A87901/attachment/ATT-0/
Enjoy!

[Hammertone]

... For anyone interested in this small and specialized field:
A very well-researched dissertation was published in 2023 by Dr. Lena Böhme with the title [translated] "Electric and electrified guitars in the German Reich until the end of the Second World War".
It's in German language only, but a small abstract in English can be found here (scroll down): Qucosa - Leipzig: Elektrische und elektrifizierte Gitarren im Deutschen Reich bis zum Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs
Lena found some surprising remarkable sources ... eg when claiming that of particular interest would be the renewed mention of the Roger pickup in the [cited] report on the 1940 [sic!] Fall Fair, as this would prove the possibility and existence of electrified archtop guitars before 1945.
The dissertation contains some new and amazing findings, although a few postulated points remain questionable (e.g. the alleged production capacities of Franz Hirsch in his Schönbach era). The full text of the dissertation:
ul.qucosa.de/api/qucosa%3A87901/attachment/ATT-0/
Enjoy!

Who knew that there would be homework... I know what I'll be doing this weekend, sheesh!! Thanks, Doc.

[Ol' Fret]

I wouldn’t get stewed over it. As far as solid body electric guitars go, Leo Fender, Ted McCarthy, Les Paul, Wenzel Rossmeisl were all chasing Paul Bigsby. Built his first solid body in 1948. Here is a pic of the second guitar he built in 1948:

Yes, Paul Bigsby is one of the pioneers of the solid body guitar and certainly George Beauchamp and a few more names.
For me, it's not primarily about the competitive idea of who was really the first to take the step towards a solid or at least semi-solid electric guitar. It is noteworthy that the Rossmeisls probably must have created the guitar model mentioned above before 1950, before that foto at the spring trade fair was shot. But the amazing thing about it, IMHO, is the extremely limited economic and social conditions under which this was achieved. Germany was roughly 50 percent destroyed; there was neither enough food, let alone parts for luxury items such as electric guitars. The terrible “hunger winter” of 1946/47 probably still cost over 100,000 lives. A recent book about the mess at that time caused a relatively large response even in the USA: Book Review | Aftermath by Harald Jähner (momentmag.com)


Even some well preserved, more or less entry level guitars, like your Rod Hoyer, can be surprisingly good guitars, but, please, consider that these were for the most part mail-order guitars, comparable to Montgomery Ward, Harmony or Kay instruments. It's fun to discover the not so wide-spread higher quality guitars.

[Ol' Fret]

Who knew that there would be homework... I know what I'll be doing this weekend, sheesh!! Thanks, Doc.

You are welcome, Hammertone! Ploughing through a dissertation is certainly something for a rainy weekend or two.

Btw., as an owner of NOS "Roger electric 54" parts you could start to assemble some models.
We did a test run of a nice original example (these were developed before 1954) - just its Ideal pickups, sitting on that weird-looking plate (either brass or aluminum) have been rewound - compared it against a Hopf Saturn, a Höfner Club, both nice guitars in the similar class. The underrated Roger simply blew us away in terms of sound, attack and playability. In the meantime, it seems that some Berlin-based players favor these funny and simple little axes over their (much higher-priced) vintage Telecasters - IMHO, for good reason.

[RJVB]

I have never understood the “kitsch” tag they are given. Art Deco/Modern in looks yes, not kitsch though ha! Here are a few pics.

In this case the guitar is relatively subdued in the kitsch department

(With this one we're getting close to what I call edel kitsch though - but not so much I considered buying one for a blue monday)