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Thanks for this! He does state the guitar has had a neck reset "at some time", but that appears to mean that the reset was done prior to his ownership. Being I am in New Jersey and the guitar appears to be in the UK, I will give it a pass.
Originally Posted by cmajor9
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02-20-2024 09:41 AM
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Below the two possible hollow-body guitar body wedge shapes - seen from the side - starting from the first, basic shape with constant depth of the sides, top and back edges being parallel.
All are being used. The second and third shape is more commonly found on flat-top guitars.
The third shape is found on some violins and many cellos, though as a matter of fact their shape is more complicated and elaborated than shown here in a simplified form. This is an extra work step, so they do it for a reason - while most players wouldn't even notice it.
Sorry for double-posting of the pixx - that actual attachment management is crappy!Last edited by Ol' Fret; 02-20-2024 at 02:04 PM.
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The Höfner Jazzica body wedge is very unusual.
Does Höfner still build higher-value bowed stringed instruments? They should have known better; all in my opinion, of course.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Mal Waldron was one of my favorite piano players. I still own many of his recordings - many of these are only available in the USA or in Japan. And I'm still a fan of Bobby Jones' tenor sax playing,
Costa Lukacs's infinitely inspired guitar playing,
Peter O'Mara or Geoff Goodman
Peter Tuscher and Karl Ratzer, and many more.
Didn't know that Titus Waldenfels is a collector, but certainly like his more unconventional musical tributes. There was a crazy guitar and related gear collector in Munich - he sadly passed away several years ago - whose large flat was full: guitars leaned against all the walls, valuable vintage instruments stacked on top of each other on the floor, expensive vintage tube amps on the balcony. The most serious GAS ...
As an older white man I simply refuse to complain more about the disappearance of the jazz culture. It doesn't help ... now that I can only be found in Munich now and then. For everything there is a season.Last edited by Ol' Fret; 02-20-2024 at 01:29 PM.
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Yes, that's 1993. Fake abalone purfling, rounded ends to the fretboard, Shadow pickup. The model got some significant changes when it became the "Custom" in @2000, including a carved solid spruce top, although it took awhile for them to sort out the problematic finish. Originally, the rims were very thick, so no kerfing was necessary. Among my first recommendations when I started working with them was to make the rims much thinner and to add kerfing, which they did. By the mid-oughts, much less finish was (typically) used, and the Jazzica Custom was a much improved guitar compared to its decade-older sibling. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
I agree. How about just calling it a shellac finish? Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
Last edited by Hammertone; 04-11-2025 at 08:41 PM.
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90 degree angles Originally Posted by Hammertone
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Right angles
Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
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Duh, OK. What's the issue with that?
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
Issue, what issue?
Cool one, HT!
More or less what I've been expecting in my post #225 and earlier (it definitely feels wrong to repeat myself!): As I said above, I'm not willing to discuss such topics in a forum ...
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Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
Originally Posted by Hammertone
OK, send me a private note or email. I want to understand why you think this is wrong. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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In cellos this would probably be a functional, subtle equivalent of the Manzer wedge, giving the player a bit easier access to the higher reaches of the fingerboard. Or at least those players who don't use one of those crazy endpins that puts the instrument "almost" horizontal. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
I too don't see why it'd be wrong to have the wedge made only by the back; I think that (or a version where it's *mostly* by the back) is what you see most often in big flat-tops.
Ole: just explaining briefly why you think it's wrong does not oblige you to enter in any subsequent discussion about it. In particular if the "IMHO" above implies you just thinks that it looks wrong, in which case there isn't even anything to discuss
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Hi folks, I'm new to this forum, and I'm deeply impressed with all the things you know about these old guitars!
Might I ask your help with identifying the maker/model of this old guitar?
I bought it may years ago as a "1960s German archtop guitar" because I liked the look and the sound, but there is no stamp or label anywhere.
In fact, it must have been reworked and even repainted at some point, and some parts may have been replaced.
On the net I found a "Juwel" with a walnut body that looks quite similar (Juwel Vintage Archtop Guitar From 1950 Walnut Brown | Reverb), but other parts look more like parts that Hoyer used (e.g. Arnold Hoyer Esquire Natural 1950s'60s Archtop Hollow Body Acoustic Guitar | eBay). For the headstock, I can't find a similar one anywhere.
Has anyone ever seen a similar guitar, or do you think it was maybe pieced together from different bits and pieces?
I'd be happy and grateful if you could help me with this one :-)
Cheers, Stratty
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Hi, can't help other than to say both the Juwei & the Hoyer appear to have solid carved spruce tops whereas yours is laminated. Your top may even have a coloured woodstain or varnish to paler underlying timber. One pic isn't much to go on! Good Luck, there are some knowledgeable folk on here.
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Originally Posted by RJVB
Ole: just explaining briefly why you think it's wrong does not oblige you to enter in any subsequent discussion about it. In particular if the "IMHO" above implies you just thinks that it looks wrong, in which case there isn't even anything to discuss
RJVB, I would understand some opinions as food for own thought - what about discussing some thoughts and insights, new and old ones, with yourself?
The very own interpretation of logic "in which case there isn't even anything to discuss" overwhelms my simple mind:
So, if I don't recognize things myself, then they basically can't exist? Huh? I could only follow this logic if I denied the existence of things in general (like here about mechanics and ergonomics / human feeling), e. g. being a nihilist.
It makes existence both saddening and charming at the same time that there are simple or more complex things under heaven that cannot be described or discussed in a halfway satisfactory way either in textform, especially in a different language, or in sketches. It's a bit like describing the feeling of love. And there's the basic crux of discussions in web forums: one person tries to explain or point to something, the next rudely brushes it off the table with the deadpan argument "Nope"; but there can be worlds of difference in perception and experience between the two.
It also doesn't seem to be easy to accept what I said before - in clear anticipation of the failure that would follow - namely the request to deepen certain things only with guitars, or guitar parts, in hand.
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Stewing again over some fotos of early German vintage electric guitars like the following one (courtesy HR on KAPITEL02 BERLINER ZEIT / GERMAN- CARVE / MARKNEUKIRCHEN – Roger Schlaggitarren ):
It shows Wenzel Rossmeisl with some of his guitars for sale at the Music Fair (probably in Leipzig) in 1950.
It is likely that the model marked by the red arrow is a solidbody or, at least, very thin chambered electric model made by Wenzel and his son.
This photo would confirm that Roger, despite all the adverse consequences in a country devastated by war, was by no means behind Leo Fender in terms of time - not at all!
For anyone interested in this small and specialized field:
A very well-researched dissertation was published in 2023 by Dr. Lena Böhme with the title [translated] "Electric and electrified guitars in the German Reich until the end of the Second World War".
It's in German language only, but a small abstract in English can be found here (scroll down): Qucosa - Leipzig: Elektrische und elektrifizierte Gitarren im Deutschen Reich bis zum Ende des Zweiten Weltkriegs
Lena found some surprising remarkable sources ... eg when claiming that of particular interest would be the renewed mention of the Roger pickup in the [cited] report on the 1940 [sic!] Fall Fair, as this would prove the possibility and existence of electrified archtop guitars before 1945.
The dissertation contains some new and amazing findings, although a few postulated points remain questionable (e.g. the alleged production capacities of Franz Hirsch in his Schönbach era). The full text of the dissertation:
ul.qucosa.de/api/qucosa%3A87901/attachment/ATT-0/
Enjoy!
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Who knew that there would be homework... I know what I'll be doing this weekend, sheesh!! Thanks, Doc. Originally Posted by Ol' Fret
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Originally Posted by Enlightened Rogue
Yes, Paul Bigsby is one of the pioneers of the solid body guitar and certainly George Beauchamp and a few more names.
For me, it's not primarily about the competitive idea of who was really the first to take the step towards a solid or at least semi-solid electric guitar. It is noteworthy that the Rossmeisls probably must have created the guitar model mentioned above before 1950, before that foto at the spring trade fair was shot. But the amazing thing about it, IMHO, is the extremely limited economic and social conditions under which this was achieved. Germany was roughly 50 percent destroyed; there was neither enough food, let alone parts for luxury items such as electric guitars. The terrible “hunger winter” of 1946/47 probably still cost over 100,000 lives. A recent book about the mess at that time caused a relatively large response even in the USA: Book Review | Aftermath by Harald Jähner (momentmag.com)
Even some well preserved, more or less entry level guitars, like your Rod Hoyer, can be surprisingly good guitars, but, please, consider that these were for the most part mail-order guitars, comparable to Montgomery Ward, Harmony or Kay instruments. It's fun to discover the not so wide-spread higher quality guitars.
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You are welcome, Hammertone! Ploughing through a dissertation is certainly something for a rainy weekend or two. Originally Posted by Hammertone
Btw., as an owner of NOS "Roger electric 54" parts you could start to assemble some models.
We did a test run of a nice original example (these were developed before 1954) - just its Ideal pickups, sitting on that weird-looking plate (either brass or aluminum) have been rewound - compared it against a Hopf Saturn, a Höfner Club, both nice guitars in the similar class. The underrated Roger simply blew us away in terms of sound, attack and playability. In the meantime, it seems that some Berlin-based players favor these funny and simple little axes over their (much higher-priced) vintage Telecasters - IMHO, for good reason.
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In this case the guitar is relatively subdued in the kitsch department Originally Posted by Enlightened Rogue
I have never understood the “kitsch” tag they are given. Art Deco/Modern in looks yes, not kitsch though ha! Here are a few pics.
(With this one we're getting close to what I call edel kitsch though - but not so much I considered buying one for a blue monday)
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<< I apologize if I sounded like it was a competition. >>
No need at all to apologize! (Don't worry, this is certainly not the place to discuss the views that a thinker like Nietzsche expressed about the nature of apology). I agree that many things were invented globally, when the technological conditions and societies were ready for them.
I basically want to bring things together - to convey an overall picture that ultimately matters, even if that often means focusing on details. In my posts above, my point was less to evaluate national American or German inventiveness than to express my astonishment at the dramatic German post-war conditions under which the Rossmeisls managed to keep up, so to speak, at the forefront of developments in the guitar sector. It is clear to me that nowadays not many people, not even in Germany, are likely to know what these conditions actually looked like.
<< Also, I wouldn’t consider the Rodebald Hoyer “Samba” to be an “entry level” instrument. Solid spruce carved top, solid maple rims. Not sure if the back is solid or laminate. I haven’t had an opportunity to play many R. Hoyer “Samba” models, but I have played a few Neubauer, Levin, and A. Hoyer “Specials” that I think it is every bit as good as, and better than most I have played. Top notch materials used. Top notch work. >>
So we have to find the common definition of "entry level" instrument. Most of us think that we know what makes a guitar an entry level guitar, but that is not necessarily the case. Generally, an entry level instrument is defined by a low or budget price, that is achieved through cheap quality materials, low labor costs and mass production, distribution via mail order, etc. Primarily the manufacturers, but also the distributors, determine the pricing whether an instrument ends up in the entry level, middle class or top league category; but of course the customers, the players, also have a say.
The only problem with this game is that the respective player alone decides whether to prefer a certain sound result. For example, if someone claims that they prefer the sound of a cigarbox guitar to that of a Gibson L-5, there is nothing to discuss. That's a fact of (subjective) inclination. Of course, most people would call someone like that to be crazy. People are herd animals and can be incredibly manipulated in large numbers. The L-5 players will point out the much better sound of their guitars, the fine woods, the good playability, the durability, the relative rarity, etc. Ultimately, the quality ranking is determined primarily by the price achieved when sold or resold. However, market prices depend on many economic factors, not least on the image of a brand and of clever and elaborate marketing. The corresponding economic psychological factors, at least in the West, have been well studied.
The problem with German vintage guitars begins precisely with the lack of image and marketing - and even more so with the lack of endorsements from musicians which had an impact on the public, the musical heroes.
A look at a Lindberg catalog from 1962 or 1963 clearly shows the price position of Rod Hoyer's "Samba" model. At that time, Lindberg in Munich was the largest German mail order company for all kinds of musical instruments. Lindberg not only sold "department store instruments", but also well-known international manufacturers of instruments, at least in terms of price, up to the lower upper class. Rod Hoyer guitars were largely sold through Lindberg, as Rod apparently never thought about other distribution channels. As one of the market-dominating dealers at the time, Lindberg was also heavily involved in Rod Hoyer's pricing, so Rod was more or less forced by his addiction to meet Lindberg's price expectations, e.g. by purchasing cheaper tonewood (or producing it himself to keep costs low), standardized dimensions of the bodies and necks (although the rather colorful range of Rod Hoyer guitars can convey the opposite to the uninitiated) and through rationalized working methods.
In fact, he succeeded very well: many of the better-preserved Rod Hoyer guitars still offer amazing value for money to this day. The top plates are carved already on his "medium" models. The backs are usually laminated (which is not overly important for the sound results), although some (earlier) models also have solid carved maple backs. Sturdy archtop guitars, for sure.
The price of the "Samba" was 145.00 Deutsche Mark (DM) in that 1962/63 Lindberg catalog. It is pictured as a noncutaway model, but this doesn't mean too much; the next "higher" Rod guitar was the asymmetric "Raspa" with a price of 155.00 DM - the difference being neglectible. Btw., the "Raspa" is sometimes called "Milord", the typical mess with German vintage guitars ...
Rod Hoyer's flagship model was the "Solist" (not to be confused with the Arnold Hoyer "Solist"), then listed for 450.00 DM.
As you can see in that catalog, the "lowest" Roger guitar, the "Junior Cut Away" started at 500.00 DM (sunburst) resp. 600.00 DM (natural). Compared to the Rogers, the "Samba" could well be marked as being an "entry level" guitar - but certainly not in terms of value and quality!
Btw., in that catalog the Fender "Telecaster" was offered for 838.00 DM, the "Stratocaster" for 1,158.00 DM and the "Jazzmaster" for 1,398.00 DM. Why this huge difference to German made solid body guitars - a Höfner "Solid" was only 350.00 DM?
Sure, there have always been VAT and Customs import taxes, but was the quality of American made guitars so much better? While some are still believing in this, some others seem to know better: the key word is Bretton-Woods-System, which included a fixed exchange rate. Then, the ratio Dollar to DM was about 1 : 4, which explains the exorbitant price differences.
A fine guitar maker like Artur Lang took about 1,000.00 DM for one of his "Super De Luxe" models at that time, which would have corresponded to ridiculous $ 250.00 (excl. VAT + Customs) for an American GI or traveler. Well, Germany had lost the war. Ironically, the British Allies couldn't afford the prices of American made guitars either (there's another historical key word for this), so they bought the "cheap" stuff Made in Germany, until better times.
Enjoy and play your "Samba"! I did so with six or seven Rod Hoyer guitars (mostly earlier ones or one-offs, which had also to be measured and inspected.)
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Originally Posted by Enlightened Rogue
To answer this in detail would be a story too long-winding for a guitar forum.
The Germans (initially some cleric people like monks) settled in and cultivated the region of North Bohemia already in the 12th century. The country of Czechoslovakia was only established after the end of WWI.
Wikipedia tells the gist: History of Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia . That article also links to the authoritative Beneš decrees - Wikipedia and Expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia - Wikipedia.
(Please note that in this case I did not check the facts given by Wikipedia: there could be significant differences between the English and the German Wikipedia websites. Until now, many European media and information channels have been significantly less influenced by the hard political, economic or any other agenda of their owners/operators - although unfortunately this now seems to be changing).
EDIT: If someone is specifically interested in the fate of the former Schönbach stringed instrument makers, there are a few good published resources. One of the more recent publications is the book "Musikinstrumentenbau in Bubenreuth und Umgebung. Von 1945 bis heute" (2020) by Christian Hoyer. it was published with the support of the Deutsch-Tschechischer Zukunftsfonds (German-Czech Future Fund).
But who cares about history that happened almost 80 years ago? Today, by far most Germans live together in a friendly manner with the Czech neighbours. That's matters most, and, of course, the guitars that have survived in our hands.Last edited by Ol' Fret; 05-15-2024 at 04:27 AM.
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Michael (Mike) Danzi playing a rare Pilar archtop at the Scala Theater in Berlin, 1935:
Mike Danzi - Wikipedia
Mike's memories "American Musician in Germany 1924 - 1939" is an entertaining read - and he played together with Wenzel Rossmeisl.
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The big auction came and went.
Just a moment...
It included @110 or so German archtop guitars from the collection of Randy Bachman, who became very interested in them around the time that his extensive collection of Gretsch guitars went to to Fred Gretsch Jr. I worked with Randy and one of his daughters to build the collection over a few years, which was really a lot of fun. I'll post photos and comments about some of the guitars in the coming days.
Did any of our members purchase any of these guitars? My collecting days are largely over, so, despite being interested in several of the guitars, I avoided the temptation to purchase more than one. More on that later.Last edited by Hammertone; 05-31-2024 at 01:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
Not that it really surprised me, but I'm still shaking my head at some of the final auction prices. As always, I say my piece, two cents, without beating around the bush:
A 12-string flattop box called Framus "Something" fetched an incredible $2,857,500, while another pre-war cult guitar with the Roger Hirsch label of a German jazz guitarist fetched a measly $1,300 - and wasn't even described as such.
The Fender LTD is essentially a Roger Luxus or Super Cutaway with Fender label - compare the prices.
The prices for Lang guitars are ridiculous. The 2007 Scharpach may be visually pimped out, but in terms of sound it's at best equal, but probably rather inferior. Lang carved his plates for longitudinal bracing, which would certainly no longer have met Lang's criteria for carrying out a cross bracing - that's impossible.
It would be nice if this were just a prejudice, but it looks to me as if the vast majority of these buyers have little idea what distinguishes a good archtop guitar from a chamber pot.
As usual, strictly no purchase here: auction houses, which probably charge a 25 to 30 percent markup from the outset, are for bored oligarchs' sons. A man should also, in principle, be willing and able to buy and sell his guitars - or whatever else - himself. In the worst case, the latter will be done by his surviving relatives and friends - real friends pay such final tributes without reservation.
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Doc: Did you watch the auction (it was live-streamed) or just review the final results? I sat through the whole thing. I had divided the relevant instruments into a variety of groupings, including:
-Items of interest to collectors of American guitars;
-Items of interest to fans of Randy Bachman;.
-Items that are visually compelling, regardless of their quality.;
-Mis-identified and incorrectly described instruments.;
-Potentially good instruments;
-Instruments in need of repair and correct parts;
-Historically important or potentially great instruments;
-East German vs. West German instruments;
and so forth.
So, the value of a crappy Framus 12 string drekstick associated with John Lennon has NOTHING to do with it being a Framus, 12-string, crappy, and so forth. It's all about its association with John Lennon, who was apparently some sort of popular and successful entertainer a few decades ago.
The value of the Fender LTD and Montego models is entirely due to their connection to Fender guitars, and has NOTHING to do with their relationship to Roger guitars through Roger and Wenzel Rossmeisl. These are important instruments to Fender instrument collectors.
I agree that, as you put it, "the vast majority of these buyers have little idea what distinguishes a good archtop guitar from a chamber pot." It is obvious that buyers in this case most likely opened their wallets because they are fans of Randy Bachman and found some Bachman-associated guitars to be visually compelling, regardless of their quality. They were willing to pay the 30% premium charged by the auction house, plus taxes, plus the cost of shipping, for the pleasure of owning, displaying or even playing guitars that belonged to one of their heroes.
Perhaps, among the purchasers, were a few folks who do appreciate the merits of German archtop guitars, and were able to get some really great guitars at reasonably fair prices, all-in.
So, yes, some of the hammer prices seem high as a result, even more so once the extra costs are added in. Especially for European buyers, who pay that much more for shipping, and VAT somewhere around 20%. Canadian buyers, too, who also pay more for shipping, and 13% HST in most provinces.
And other hammer prices seem low, although, by the time the extra costs are added in, they are well within the typical retail range.
Just a note for clarity: the final prices shown on the auction site have the 30% premium already added.
Last edited by Hammertone; 06-04-2024 at 04:51 PM.
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