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That top looks more like my 330, which is pressed ply. I could be wrong but I think that (some) recent Gibson Archtops have a solid but pressed top; I assume heat is involved. Not sure I'd want to try that out with a nice matched board of good spruce!
All the other Juniors I've seen (all online) had the distinctive German carve.
There was pretty much an even spread of blondes & sunbursts, possibly two different sunbursts but could just have been the lighting or poor phone cameras like mine...
Like the front, it has a German carve back (were they pressed in this style?). Looking at the internal & external grain patterns I'm certain the back is solid maple & the front solid spruce.
I've not knowingly seen an original pickguard & I doubt the bent steel mount is original, there are several other badly filled holes in the lower side for some previous fittings. I intend to replace the badly fitted screw that split the guards edge binding, with a better solution.
The P.U. face is set 6.5mm (1/4") from the strings, certainly further away than my 330 P90's.
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02-09-2025 09:18 AM
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Definitely not an original pickguard or mounting bracket. The shot I posted shows a correct original Roger Junior pickguard and mounting hardware.
All the "German carve" Roger plates are solid, carved wood. Your guitar has a carved spruce top plate and carved maple back plate The rims are solid bent maple.
The Roger Juniors made for Boosey & Hawkes with"American-style" arching have solid, pressed spruce top plates The corresponding "American-style" maple back plates are pressed, laminated maple, but there are some with pressed, solid maple back plates. Most of the Boosey & Hawkes Juniors are like this but a few, like yours, were built like the regular Roger Juniors, with "German carve" solid, carved plates.
Please post a photo of the label.
Photo of a couple of the Boosey & Hawkes Juniors. Note the original mounting pickguard mounting brackets and pickguards. And the difference in body binding:
Last edited by Hammertone; 02-10-2025 at 04:47 AM.
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Given the top & back were solid, I thought it likely the sides were as well, just haven't examined them closely yet. It's a shame that previous owners screwed holes in it but considering it's age (I can only read the last digit of the serial number) it could have been a lot worse. My similar aged 330 was covered in cigarette burns when I first got it.
Being a somewhat obscure make, there was possibly a time when it wasn't valued very much. I have a 6 string Hofner President bass that had in the past, different pickups fixed to it, with rather crude holes in the top & somewhat ugly repairs.
I'm interested to know what the lacquer finish is, since I would like to do something about the damage, with some discrete repairs. Matching the aged colour will be a challenge. But like the Hofner, it hasn't harmed its playability
Thanks for the note re your pickguard. I guess mine isn't far off appearance wise & is at least in keeping but your detail would be useful. I doubt I'll find an original, which I'm not an absolute stickler for anyway but I'll keep a lookout. Probably there is some "tortoise shell" plastic available to make a replica but it's unlikely to be celluloid or whatever the originals were made from!
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Roger Junior pickguard
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I sometimes revisit this thread. Did you ever find out any more about your guitar?
Originally Posted by Jurassicstrat
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Thanks for the super sized pickguard pics, Hammertone.
Been rather busy & only just realised you'd posted them up. Although mine is somewhat similar in shape it's clearly different since the binding is bonded to the edge, whereas your original seems to be encapsulated within the edge, unless its a paint line. Interesting that the back of yours shows the partial outlines of pickguards - looks like someone turned the "tortoiseshell" over to cut yours.
I think I could scale up from the photos & make a bracket from stainless steel, since I doubt many spare originals exist.
Do you know what the lacquer finish is on these Rogers? I'm guessing it's a cellulose of some sort.
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Hi folks,
heads-up on a new publication, out 9th April in UK. No affiliation:
German Jazz Guitars: The Archtop Guitar in Post-War Central Europe by Cameron Brown & Stefan Lob
All the best,
Mick W
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I'll try & get a better one shortly, it's a bit inaccessible!
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Here's mine, a Musima Record 15:
I've read all that I can find about these, but am eager for more information. One source says that the Simeto 2B pickups were made from 1962 to 1972, while another source says 1964 to 1974. Not knowing which is correct, I guess I can only narrow the date to 1962 to 1974. It has the multi-laminated neck, and no truss rod, which probably puts it in the 1960s rather than 1970s. The pickguard with the "Star" logo, is a replacement - it should say "Musima".
I've seen Records that are sunburst, and others that are natural, but this is the only one I've ever seen that has a sunburst top and natural back. The sides and neck also have an unusual finish pattern:
I'm really interested in what the experts can tell me about this instrument.
Don
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well, there's no way I can't get this! Originally Posted by Mick Wright
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Stefan Lob is the creator and publisher of the schlaggitarren.de site (a great resource for info about German jazz guitars), and Cameron Brown from the UK has been a serious enthusiast since at least the early 2010s (the days of the old Euroguitars forum). The book should be a fascinating trove of information! Originally Posted by Mick Wright
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It sounds and plays wonderfully, and is definitely a keeper!
Don
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I'm trying to understand why three recent posts in this thread - including one that I replied to - seem to be gone. There were 290 posts a couple of days ago. Now there are 287. Any ideas?
Din
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I sometimes get email notifications of posts and their content but they don't appear on the forum. I guess the posters decide to remove them. Originally Posted by Major Seventh
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And it can be very tempting not to quote the content in a reply Originally Posted by garybaldy
But I doubt that removing a post will also remove posts replying to it.
What's the policy on this forum when someone gets kicked off or asks for account deletion? I know that in that case I for one would prefer to see all my content disappear but that can be a tall order to comply with and AFAIK not even the EU right-to-be-forgotten laws give any formal right to demand such a thing.
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To be clear, my post (#287) was a reply to someone who commented on my earlier post (#284). I had used the "Reply" button, rather than "Reply with quote". I'm new to this forum, but will probably use "Reply with quote" in the future, to avoid the risk of a comment that doesn't bear any relation to an earlier post.
Still hoping Ol' Fret, Hammertone, or another resident expert will chime in about my Record 15.
Don
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A forum member can delete his/her own posts or the forum administrator will delete threads/posts if they are objectionable (e.g., contain personal insults) or a forum member has asked him to delete them. Originally Posted by Major Seventh
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Hi Don. I'm on the road for awhile. I'll post some thoughts in the next week or so. Originally Posted by Major Seventh
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Originally Posted by Major Seventh
Here's mine, a Musima Record 15:
I've read all that I can find about these, but am eager for more information. One source says that the Simeto 2B pickups were made from 1962 to 1972, while another source says 1964 to 1974. Not knowing which is correct, I guess I can only narrow the date to 1962 to 1974. It has the multi-laminated neck, and no truss rod, which probably puts it in the 1960s rather than 1970s. The pickguard with the "Star" logo, is a replacement - it should say "Musima".
I've seen Records that are sunburst, and others that are natural, but this is the only one I've ever seen that has a sunburst top and natural back. The sides and neck also have an unusual finish pattern:
I'm really interested in what the experts can tell me about this instrument.
Don
The Musima Records, these "stolen Rogers" and German carve flagships, were built behind the Iron Curtain from 1955 to 1978, in regular variants, full-hollow and thinline, in some low-run special versions and even one-offs - like a double-cutaway Record.
These Simeto single-coil pickups were made from 1964 (the short-lived 1963 version had a different metal housing); in 1974 they made the next version, the black one. These pickups were made in larger quantities.
Far from being a Record expert it's not possible for me to tell something meaningful based on a couple of fotos.
The 1950's and early 1960's Records were full-hollow bodies. I guess the thin models were launched with the new pickups around 1964. Your guitar definitely looks like the Record 15, the predecessor of the Record 17; there were pretty much differences between them.
The model 15 measures about 42cm at the lower bout (whereas the 17 - nomen est omen - is a 17" guitar). The 15 shows the mahogany middle layer on top and back (copying the look of Roger's Ultra models, which, btw., were originally promoted to withstand better in humid and tropical climates), and that incredible mutli-laminated neck (maple and pear wood). It still has the smaller headstock shape with the Record logo in diamond shape (the 17 has its name longitudinally centered on the headstock). The fretboard inlays were diamond-rhomboids.
It is my understanding that the model 15 features two regular longitudinal tone-bars a la Roger, whereas the larger and a bit less fancy looking model 17 shows the intrinsic soundboard reinforcement - or whatever you like to call that. It is not a sustain block, since it doesn't touch the back plate; it's just that the spruce top is kept thicker in the area where the bridge downforce makes it necessary. Here a pic of how Musima routed the top plates on the inside of the model 17. Note that it is well possible that the transition from tone-bars to the intrinsic reinforcement was already made during the last production runs of the models 15. Of course, they still had to chisel out and scrape all the wood transitions by hand:
As you have noticed your Record 15 shows an unusual color scheme. They offered the blonde finish (which, btw., shows a great, smooth looking visual match between the mahogany, the pear wood and the brown-tortoise binding). Why they also chose to offer a red sunburst finish on these Ultra versions ... I don't know. Well, as is often the case you chose a color finish on guitars where the wood isn't looking perfect, thus conceiling some minor imperfections. The model 17 was offered only in the sunburst finish.
Your guitar shows the sunburst top, some "transitional" looking sides offering more blonde than what you would expect, and the nice looking back in mere blonde. Unusually as well, the headstock (rear) shows sunburst, the neck blonde again. So, IMHO, you have three possibilities:
1. Someone wanted exactly that look and asked the workers at the finish department to do so.
2. The guitar was assembled later, being what we call a Frankenstein (similar to some Telecaster assembled from parts).
3. The guitar was refinished at some point. This would be supported by the fact that the pickguard and the tuners are not original. To me, on the pics it seems as if at least the sunburst on the top appears to glow a touch redder and fresher than one would expect - a small tinge of the late Barney Kessels cherry-red. The original clear coat on the blonde models 15, after all these years, should also be pointing more in the direction of a beautiful aged amber, less looking like natural wood color (at some point, Musima switched from the flamed maple to figured aningre). Please note that I could be completely wrong, and pics hardly tell the whole story.
Musima Records are stolen children, the kudos must go to Wenzel Rossmeisl. Anyway, this looks like a nice example, and these ingeniously crafted models made of solid woods are musically very versatile. Although the GDR leaders considered jazz and rock music to be the music of the class enemy, the Record was produced in considerable numbers - they really needed to make some hard currency in the West, the Eastern German Mark was not worth much. The guitarists in the area of the former Warsaw Pact loved these guitars as well, and quite a number of these models, especially the model 17, still bear the sticker "Property of the NVA" - the GDR's National People's Army.
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Thanks for the great information. I'll try to get some additional photos, and compose a thoughtful response, in a few days. I'm too busy at the moment to do either.
Don
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Okay, I finally found a little time. Thanks again, Ol, Fret, for the informative post. I measured the lower bouts of my guitar, and it is a full 17", despite clearly being a Record 15.
The photo of the roughed out top for a Record 17 is quite interesting. That's a novel and clever approach to limiting feedback. My Record 15 has the traditional 2 tone bar bracing. The neck has at least three, if not four, different species of wood.
Regarding the color, I do not believe that it has been refinished. (The "Star" pickguard is a recent addition.) The guitar has been examined under black light, and the whole instrument fluoresces green, indicative of original finish. In person, the nitrocellulose lacquer has yellowed quite a bit more than the photos above suggest. Here are some additional images:
I have one final question. Somewhere I read that although Musima had the modern factory in Markneukirchen, for some of their high-end products, they continued to rely on the local home workshops. I assume that if Records, whether 15 or 17, were made in large numbers, they would have been made in the factory. Is that correct?
This is a fascinating topic, and this forum is an amazing resource. (I don't even play jazz.) The insights shared here are invaluable.
Don
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Hi Don, Originally Posted by Major Seventh
sorry I can't help with any details but for your & other interest, this is currently on Ebay;
Musima Record Vintage German Carve Luxury Jazz Archtop Electric Guitar | eBay
I downloaded some photos but they seem to be the wrong file type to upload here.
It certainly is the same range as yours.
No doubt original pickguards are unobtainium; I would think it's possible to replicate (a facsimile) scaling up from the Ebay pics, laminating the logo & pinstripe within plastic layers.. If vinyl printing it would have to be the UV resistant type.
Your dating would seem about right; the more gaudy colours - brighter sunbursts - multiple surface mounted pickups & pots certainly point in that direction. Seemingly an effort to update appearances in the face of the massive expansion in the West, of the "pop" guitar market? The German carve & fancy binding is surely a superior (& more expensive) construction, in comparison to the many pressed plywood bodies available at the time. Just going on production cost & materials availability, I suspect the German carve tops were gone by the early to mid 60's, particularly with the boom in easily painted solid bodies. Perhaps some GC's were available later as one offs, or limited runs.
Edit:
Absolutely typical! I opened the Archtops page & Ol Fret's educated response wasn't showing...
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Do DDR potentiometers have manufacturer codes stamped on them like U.S. ones do? That could help with dating.
Don
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Originally Posted by Major Seventh
Okay, I finally found a little time. Thanks again, Ol, Fret, for the informative post. I measured the lower bouts of my guitar, and it is a full 17", despite clearly being a Record 15.
The photo of the roughed out top for a Record 17 is quite interesting. That's a novel and clever approach to limiting feedback. My Record 15 has the traditional 2 tone bar bracing. The neck has at least three, if not four, different species of wood.
Regarding the color, I do not believe that it has been refinished. (The "Star" pickguard is a recent addition.) The guitar has been examined under black light, and the whole instrument fluoresces green, indicative of original finish. In person, the nitrocellulose lacquer has yellowed quite a bit more than the photos above suggest. Here are some additional images:
I have one final question. Somewhere I read that although Musima had the modern factory in Markneukirchen, for some of their high-end products, they continued to rely on the local home workshops. I assume that if Records, whether 15 or 17, were made in large numbers, they would have been made in the factory. Is that correct?
This is a fascinating topic, and this forum is an amazing resource. (I don't even play jazz.) The insights shared here are invaluable.
Don
Yes, hardly any doubt on the new pics that the finish is original! Someone couldn't decide whether they wanted a blonde or a sunburst Record 15 - and obviously chose the middle ground ...
I measured three Record models; all thinlines, post 1964 or so:
- The blonde 15 on the left has a lower bout width of 423mm.
- The sunburst 15 in the middle (431mm or 17") is like yours, just a full sunburst version.
- The guitar on the right is the youngest, a typical model 17 without the "Ultra layer". Sunburst only; simpler neck lamination; integrated soundboard bracing, 435mm lower bout and the standard wider neck at the zero fret (nut).
Great thinline guitars, considering their current market price, though most of them will need some TLC. Definitely as versatile as any Gibson ES-330 and Barney Kessel for a fraction of the cost - still unspoiled and not hyped up.
Musima called these German carve models simply Schlaggitarren (archtop guitars) or Halbresonanz-Gitarren (semi-acoustics). Yes, these were made in quantities, but certainly much less than you would expect. Concert guitars and the "bread and butter" models had always been the largest segment of the Musima production program. Less than one of 100 sold guitars was made by a master guitar maker. For the year 1966 the percentage of Schlaggitarren (archtop guitars) measured against the total production volume in money was 12.9 percent.
Like in West Germany or the USA ($ORA$ - the recent geographical "renaming game" invented in America is gathering speed among whom they obviously call "Europe's parasites"), Musima's general build quality was slowly decreasing from the 1950s to the 1980s - though they realised that it was necessary to train employees in craftsmanship skills. Musima had a central training workshop that was managed by the foreman of the "archtop guitar" department. After year 8 at school pupils of both sexes began a three-year training to become a "Mechanic for musical instruments, specializing in plucked or stringed instruments". An essential part of the training was study at the vocational school in Klingenthal - people in the GDR were well aware of the positive aspects of dual vocational training. Musima went to great lengths to develop its own modern production methods and technologies in order to save foreign currency and keep up with foreign competitors.
Like most other things in life the quality of guitar making procedures has always been depending on the actual political system. One cannot be separated from the other; if you don't consider the political and economical system, you'll hardly ever understand the quintessence of musical instrument making. OK, it's my understanding that not all people like to understand connections...
Btw., the model 15 neck laminations were made of pear wood, maple and mahogany, like Roger originals. Musima had seized the complete fromer workshop of Wenzel Rossmeisl in Markneukirchen, including the high pressure machine that Wenzel had transported from West Berlin to the GDR for the production of laminated guitar necks. Exotic woods such as mahogany, rosewood or ebony were purchased from known West Germany companies.
The trained eye will spot some finer things: the mahogany stripes on the necks were light brown or dark brown, light and dark in separated form not being suspicious to the eye. If you look at the wider boards though, for example the mahogany, you notice that the GDR system had to turn to lower grade woods while spending hard West D-Mark valuta. Many "Ultra" middle layers show that they had also to accept mahogany planks with (the lighter looking) sap wood portions. Well, it's just for the (trained) eye, the tone is not compromised at all:
Musima "annexed" many operations and production sites after 1953. The new Musima main building was inaugurated in Markneukirchen in 1967. There's a really comprehensive list of major and minor Musima production sites in and around Markneukirchen. The annexion of part of the production cooperative "PGH Sinfonia" in 1985 lists another 49 operational sites.
A nice book illuminates the complex history of Musima: MUSIMA Gitarren . It's written in German and English, though there's certainly no breaking news at all in respect to the specific guitar models.
I think it's time to accept that the making of musical instruments in Germany, like most of German history and actions, was complex and chaotic in places, still needs to be investigated in some areas. This is a different world, and any attempt to impose American procedures and ways of commercial thinking can only fail or even lead to misunderstandings.
It's possible that the pots that Musima used were dated, sorry, I don't know! But this would never be my preferred method to determine the making of a guitar! Like many here around, nobody would be willing to spend a fortune for purchasing an "original" or whatever precious pot. If a pot is dead, replace it simply with a new one - done! No pseudo-emotional, i. e. vintage-commercial fussing around here. True, these original Record circuits may be special, idiosyncratic. Anyway, all broken circuits, on a 1959 Les Paul or whatever else... if necessary, I'd change them in the blink of an eye.
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Hi Ol' Fret,
With you being in Canada and me in the U.S. I should be grateful that you're conversing with me at all right now. Okay, back to guitars.
If one wanted a proper pickguard, I think the easiest thing to do would be to buy a model 1655 with an intact "Musima" pickguard, swap them out, and then resell the 1655. More effort than I'm willing to go to.
I really appreciate all the info.
Don
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