Vintage German Archtops

[Hammertone]

I suspect that this is a good archtop guitar and not a chamberpot, despite the tarnish on the silver-plated tailpiece and the corrosion on the the frets. I do know that, unlike the auction description, it is NOT a '50s copy of a Roger, nor is the maker unknown.

[RJVB]

I suspect that this is a good archtop guitar and not a chamberpot

I was tempted to ask if it couldn't be both, but then I saw the photos.

With f-holes that narrow it could only be a decorative chamberpot I fear


Good looking instrument; the black tailpiece could actually be more visually fitting than its original silver-coloured state.

[Hammertone]

Perhaps its new owner might be aware of its importance, but here's a 1930's Roger, built by Franz Hirsch, and that makes it pretty special in my book. Based on study of the available photos, I've concluded that it is not Coco Schumann's Roger. Regardless of that, I sure hope it gets a lot of play. Maybe install a nice set of Waverly or Schertler tuners to replace the egregiously dissonant Grover Rotomatics.

[Atomic]

I waited weeks for this auction to begin. Like HT, I was along for the ride from the very beginning. After letting go of my Lang —to another forum member, I’ve been on the lookout for another one ever since. Despite my efforts today, I came up short, having been outbid twice, followed by another loss owing to a brief distraction. I haven’t had a lousy day like this in a while.

I couldn’t believe how the instruments were all over the map, with contradictory estimates and reserves. I suppose there was ultimately some tactical advantage in it, having Lang guitars arbitrarily lumped in with various schlagittaren. The disservice here is that Artur Lang’s creations are formidable, top-tier instruments and should have been presented as such.

[DLQ]

Sadly, a glitch prevented me from bidding on this one. Perhaps its new owner might be aware of its importance, but it's a 1930's Roger, built by Franz Hirsch and that makes it pretty special in my book. I don't have any concrete evidence that it is Coco Schumann's Roger, but, regardless of whether it is or not, I sure hope it gets a lot of play.

wow what a beauty. I had my eye on other things but I would certainly have bid on this at the price on sight alone, even though Im not familiar with Roger guitars. I was unfamiliar with Lang too, but the listing for the Scharpach celebrated Lang as a luthier. Re Atomic, were the hammer prices on those lower than expected?

[Ol' Fret]

Doc: Did you watch the auction (it was live-streamed) or just review the final results? I sat through the whole thing. I had divided the relevant instruments into a variety of groupings, including:
-Items of interest to collectors of American guitars;
-Items of interest to fans of Randy Bachman;.
-Items that are visually compelling, regardless of their quality.;
-Mis-identified and incorrectly described instruments.;
-Potentially good instruments;
-Instruments in need of repair and correct parts;
-Historically important or potentially great instruments;
-East German vs. West German instruments;
and so forth.

So, the value of a crappy Framus 12 string drekstick associated with John Lennon has NOTHING to do with it being a Framus, 12-string, crappy, and so forth. It's all about its association with John Lennon, who was apparently some sort of popular and successful entertainer a few decades ago.

The value of the Fender LTD and Montego models is entirely due to their connection to Fender guitars, and has NOTHING to do with their relationship to Roger guitars through Roger and Wenzel Rossmeisl. These are important instruments to Fender instrument collectors.

I agree that, as you put it, "the vast majority of these buyers have little idea what distinguishes a good archtop guitar from a chamber pot." It is obvious that buyers in this case most likely opened their wallets because they are fans of Randy Bachman and found some Bachman-associated guitars to be visually compelling, regardless of their quality. They were willing to pay the 30% premium charged by the auction house, plus taxes, plus the cost of shipping, for the pleasure of owning, displaying or even playing guitars that belonged to one of their heroes.

Perhaps, among the purchasers, were a few folks who do appreciate the merits of German archtop guitars, and were able to get some really great guitars at reasonably fair prices, all-in.

So, yes, some of the hammer prices seem high as a result, even more so once the extra costs are added in. And others seem low, although, by the time the extra costs are added in, they are well within the typical retail range.

Just a note for clarity: the final prices shown on the auction site have the 30% premium already added.

Well, I had no intention of buying anything, so didn't register or watch the auction. It seems that although I love music and musical instruments, I am or want to be anything but a typical collector. I realize that personality cult fetishism could be as necessary as devotional worship.
Your list item Potentially good instruments would have been the only interesting thing, and the 'potentially' could be removed. Anyway, some folks should have acquired aceptable to very good guitars, most of which - nice photos and descriptions or not - will probably require some TLC.
Your new acquisition seems pretty promising - congrats! Still, the final prices for the Lang guitars were shamefully low, compared to the best carved US archtop models. An aspect that is changing in Germany, for better or worse, now that his work has moved a little more into the spotlight.

Once I told the story of Coco Schumann's prewar Roger in the former Euro guitars forum. It went overboard during a boozy party on the sailing boat, floating happily in the Wannsee. I can't find the photo of that event anymore.
Why do you think it might not be Coco's Roger (by Hirsch) Standard? It was refinished twice, got a new fretboard, etc.

[Hammertone]

...Why do you think it might not be Coco's Roger (by Hirsch) Standard? It was refinished twice, got a new fretboard, etc.

There are a few differences in the headstock overlay between Coco's Roger as shown in photos, and the auction guitar. We have seen other Roger archtops with that style of headstock overlay, so it was not unique to one or two guitars. I think that it is highly improbable that the overlay would have been replaced with a very similar overlay when the various other repairs and renovations were done. Hardly an absolute conclusion.

Here's another pre-war Roger, also desecrated with Grover Rotomatics but otherwise quite lovely.

[Ol' Fret]

Addendum to post #247: Michael Danzi, American Musician in Germany 1924 - 1939, as told by Rainer E. Lotz.
Really fascinating and amazingly true recollections from memory by an important figure in the history of popular music in Europe, so I've decided to give some quotes from that book as a teaser, a bow to the musician, and also to Mr. Lotz.

From the Preface:
Michael Danzi does not appear in many of the standard reference books on the history of Berlin and Germany, the development of music and entertainment in the 1920s, 1930s, and 1940s, or the listings of recordings and films made in the years when Berlin dominated European artistic progress. Michael Danzi recorded seventeen thousand titles during his sixteen years in Europe [...]
During his years in Germany Danzi was regarded as the top instrumentalist and soloist on banjo, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and Hawaiian guitar as well as the mandolin [...]
He was one of the several American musicians whose careers were mainly outside the U.S.A. and so have been ignored by American historians. He brought the latest sound of popular music from America to Germany and so influenced hundreds of musicians in Europe. Berlin was the artistic centre of Europe in the golden twenties, from the end of post-war inflation in 1923 until the Nazi takeover in 1933. Music, literature, theatre, sports, commerce, technology, entertainment, vice, sexual experiments, fine arts, films, and poetry exploded in Berlin in those years.

P. 35:
"Right up to 1929 I was the only proper technical banjo player in Berlin; Lindström employed other banjoists, such as Willy Behrendt, Harold Kirchstein, Mischa Michaeloff, Gottschalk und Wenzel Rossmeisl. In 1930 all changed to the guitar [...]"

P. 37:
"I got it [a tenor guitar] from Austin Egen, a singer from Massachusetts, whom I had first met in Boston in 1922 when I was travelling in vaudeville in my banjo band. He had arrived in Berlin 1923, and had been very busy as a singer, composer, and businessman. He owned a modern music store on Anhalterstrasse near the Europahaus. Austin Egen was the Berlin agent for the famous Gold Paramount range of banjos, and the Vega and Vega Vox, Stuart, and Gibson ranges of banjos and guitars."

P. 76:
"As well as the Pavillon Mascotte work I did a broadcast from the Deutschlandsender with Tony Morello and Wenzel Rossmeisl, a trio offering five instruments. Tony was effective on ukulele, singing and playing to my Hawaiian guitar solo on 'Aloha', and I played 'Go, Go' on banjo to Tony's banjo obligato and Rossmeisl's guitar."

P. 85:
"Grenzebach of Telefunken called me in for some work in late May [1934], which suited me as I planned to go to New York a little later, to see what was going on there. In fact my guitar was being repaired by the Este Banjo and Guitar Company in Hamburg [...]"

P. 104:
[On the occasion of a vacation in his hometown New York in 1937] "Compared to Berlin New York seemed dirty, old, and tired. [...]"

P. 105:
"In August I bought a new D'Angelico guitar - today it is a collector's item."

P. 187:
"I got another letter from Germany at this time [1956], from Wenzel Rossmeisl who had taken over his uncle's guitar factory in the late 1930s. I had known him in Berlin since 1926. He told me that many German musical instruments manufacturers would love to have an American who spoke German, played plectrum instruments, and knew the business, to represent them in the U.S.A. This would have involved a lot of travel, within the U.S.A. and also to Europe, on extensive tours. The proposition was good and my wife was delighted with the prospect of seeing Europe again. Rossmeisl planned to visit New York in March, 1957, and he wrote to say that he would sign me up."

dito:
"On December 10, 1956 my wife complained of a sudden pressure at the base of her head, and suddenly she collapsed. She had a brain haemorrhage and died three weeks later. For thirty five years she had been my guiding spirit. Every solo I had written and played was inspired by her love of music, and many were the result of her singing a little phrase which I later developed into a solo. The months on the road, the return to new York, our days back together, and this sudden shock left me unbalanced. Nothing was important anymore. I destroyed my scrap books, records, music sheets, scores of photographs signed to me by famous stars, correspondence, diaries, price lists, ticket stubs, and anything that linked me to the past, which had ended when she died. I lowered the curtain on the most beautiful era of my life, that spent with my wife, the twenties and thirties, in Berlin."

P. 188:
"My son designed fashions and was years ahead of his time, and he was busy; so was I, so the days, weeks, and months went by. Then Rossmeisl arrived in New York [1957] and asked if I was still interested in the representative proposal. My son did not want to leave New York, and I didn' t want to change my life style again. So I introduced him to a suitable representative who could launch the "Roger" guitar in America. We were to meet again at the beginning of 1965."

P. 206:
"The new year brought a surprise, for Wenzel Rossmeisl came to New York in January [1965]. He was on his way to see his son, who had left Berlin in 1952 and now lived in California. He had decided to sell his guitar business as his health wasn't too good."

About the hardworking book author (narrator) of Mike Danzi's vivid recollections, Rainer E. Lotz:
- Rainer E. Lotz - IASA 2019 Annual Conference (sched.com)
and for those who can read German:
- Musiksammlung von Rainer Lotz - Ein Plattenschatz zieht um (deutschlandfunkkultur.de)
- Ehrung für Godesberger Rainer Lotz: Der Mann mit 60?000 Schellackplatten im Keller (ga.de)
- In einem Bad Godesberger Keller lagert Schallplatten-Schatz (ga.de)

Mr. Lotz, a German mechanical engineer, political scientist, economist, and jazz historian, collector and discographer (Rainer Lotz – Wikipedia) wrote or co-wrote many standard references on the early jazz and jazz-related music in Germany, e. g. Hitler's Airwaves: The Inside Story of Nazi Radio Broadcasting and ... - H. J. P. Bergmeier, Rainer E. Lotz - Google Books .
Some of his selected 60,000 prewar shellac records are now in the collection of the University of California in Santa Barbara.

[Hammertone]

From the Bachman collection auction, here are a couple of Roger Super archtops. One is from 1963 (mis-identified in the auction notes as being from '57) and the other has no label, but appears to have been built in the same timeframe, because the two back plates are from the same distinctive board. It was probably assembled and finished later, given the original Schaller M6 tuners and the plastic logo badge. It was customized at a later date (added headstock inlay, engraved heelcap, gold-plated tailpiece, custom pickguard).

[Hammertone]

...After letting go of my Lang —to another forum member, I’ve been on the lookout for another one ever since. ...

Mwahahahaha!!!....

[Hammertone]

wow what a beauty. I had my eye on other things but I would certainly have bid on this at the price on sight alone, even though Im not familiar with Roger guitars. I was unfamiliar with Lang too, but the listing for the Scharpach celebrated Lang as a luthier. Re Atomic, were the hammer prices on those lower than expected?

Many of the guitars fetched very low prices, a few failed to reach their reserve prices, and the rest sold at average market prices, with a few notable exceptions.

This is due to several factors:
-many of the German archtops are unknown to American bidders;
-the 30% premium, shipping costs to Europe, and VAT into Europe discouraged European bidders;
-the auction house's choice to increase bids over $1,000 by $250/bid squashed bidding above that level for less expensive guitars (most of the German ones);
-the unsold items had reserve prices that were too high;
-the Bachman brand may be well-loved among fans of the Guess Who and BTO, but is not strong among those interested in most of these instruments.

The result is that
-Randy's famous guitars ('59 Les Paul, BTO strats, and so forth) did not perform well or failed to reach their reserves;
-obscure German archtops sold for very little.

However, some instruments did just fine:
-Hoyer Special, Special SL, and Bianka models;
-lower and mid-level factory built German archtops
-various cheap-o American guitars;
-specific mid-priced custom and unique American and Japanese electric guitars.

Langs sold for below market prices. Master-built but obscure East German guitars sold for very little, in the same price band as much less worthy instruments.

IMO, the auction was not great for Bachman, but great for bidders, who scooped up all sorts of fantastic German archtop guitars for cheap.

[Hammertone]

More from the Bachman auction. The East German-made Musima Record is relatively unknown in the New World, but absolutely the best deal out there. Most of these went for $1,300 at the auction, surprisingly consistent with their low retail value.

-17" wide - check!
-Hollow thinline - check!
-Fully carved top and back plates - check!
-Supercool uniquely-carved heavy top to inhibit feedback (well, for the '60s ones) - check!
-@24 3/4" scale - check!
-Good pickups - check!

Functionally similar to a Gibson L-5CES George Gobel at a fraction of the price. Medium-scale L-5CES Thinline. The two on the left are very early ‘50s examples, different in a few ways. The three on the right are far less rare, later models. These typically have very wide necks.

[Hammertone]

...Good looking instrument; the black tailpiece could actually be more visually fitting that its original silver-coloured state.

I cleaned up the tailpiece a bit - will probably do a fade from shiny to filthy/tarnished as opposed to cleaning the whole thing.

[beate_r]

Maybe a bit back from the top level models with their carved tops:



An Isana. Recently bought from "kleinanzeigen". Budget model. Bindings only around the top, nowhere else. New tuners, otherwise it looks nearly mint.
The well known chunky D-shaped neck (which, btw, i like), no trussrod. Tiny Mandolin frets. Body laminated, of course. Date stamp says Aug, 1966. Nice, warm, well balanced sound. Currently in baritone tuning a-a with strings .016-.056. Still nice, warm and "open" tone, not too loud, of course.
In standard tuning, these strings were a bit heavy for that body, the tone was already a bit compressed. In normal tuning it will probably play best with .011 or .012 strings.

BTW i removed the pickguard and enjoy that this improves the sound.

[beate_r]

She has a sister:



Looks like an Isana as well, specifically the "Elvis"-Guitar in red.
Again plywood, at that time all original, but in a very bad condition. I had to open it and spent a lot of work to restore it. Again that chunky neck without headstock, made of birch.

Labelled "Oscha", and a small Label on the back of the headstock:

"Otto Schade K.G,
Musikinstrumente
Hagen i.W. (Street not readable to my old eyes)"

Looks like a dealer. What i could find out:

Otto Schade Kom.Ges., Hagen

That company existed from 1969-1984. Josef Sandner had to stop making guitars in 1974, two years before he passed away

The guitars look as if Sandner had made a batch of those for that dealer.
Well, that must have been between 1969 and 1974, when the high time of Archtop lutherie in Germany was more or less over.

[Kirk1701]

Mwahahahaha!!!....

This one I really like. I'm sure it's way out of my price range.

[Kirk1701]

There are a few differences in the headstock overlay between Coco's Roger as shown in photos, and the auction guitar. We have seen other Roger archtops with that style of headstock overlay, so it was not unique to one or two guitars. I think that it is highly improbable that the overlay would have been replaced with a very similar overlay when the various other repairs and renovations were done. Hardly an absolute conclusion.

Here's another pre-war Roger, also desecrated with Grover Rotomatics but otherwise quite lovely.

This looks very much like a '37-39 Epi Broadway. I like it. Again, who knows how affordable?

[RJVB]

I cleaned up the tailpiece a bit - will probably do a fade from shiny to filthy/tarnished as opposed to cleaning the whole thing.

I expect that just using an (old) silverware cleaning cloth will give it a very nice patina that makes the hammered aspect come out great.

And about that... has she (sic ) become your signature guitar yet?

[cmajor9]

She has a sister:



Looks like an Isana as well, specifically the "Elvis"-Guitar in red.

For those interested, here’s my ‘upscale’ Isana. It’s the same basic body but with a solid spruce top, fancier woods and deco, and multi-laminate neck. I’d describe the neck shape as ‘rounded rectangle’, but its comfortable to play nonetheless. It’s a good-sounding guitar after all these years, as well.



The last photo shows my blonde against a ‘typical’ (laminate) Elvis model, which was also a good guitar.

[beate_r]

Beautiful guitars.

Do i see it right that the blonde guitar does not have a truss rod but the red one does? And, for curiosity, are the date stamps still readable?

[cmajor9]

Thanks, beate_r. I also think they look nice. I believe the blonde has a non-adjustable bar installed, but you’re correct, it has no truss rod cover. In any case the neck is perfectly straight.

[Flowboy]

Having just looked back over the more recent posts I feel like a fraud with my purchase having seen some of those beautiful examples (Coco type Hirsch etc. ! )
Anyway ..
Hi all. I recently got this...


Roger Junior. Mittenwald, circa 1961 (S. number is mostly illegible + there is a signature on the label.)
Possibly some will have seen it on Reverb or elsewhere. It's been hanging around with no takers for a long time so I finally bit the bullet...
German carve spruce, plays nicely & projects quite well, despite arriving with very light strings. There are some issues but not critical. It seems to have been mostly well looked after, lacquer is good. Fretboard is lacquered which seems a little odd for rosewood (if that's what it is). Is the lacquer an original finish?

In the past it seems to have had different pickup/s electronics, but no major holes drilled into the top, unlike many I've seen.
I don't know if the pickguard is original & unfortunately whoever fitted the vol pot, stabilised the guard by putting a screw through the edge of the binding, into the top. I replaced the chicken head knob it came with, which looked daft to me, with an old thing I had that seemed more in keeping.
The Bartolini p.u. seems ok, I don't have any experience re. archtop p.u.s
I play acoustics mostly so it's quite nice to have an electric with a big body! Pretty pleased with it overall.

[Hammertone]

A few points:

- most Roger archtop fretboards are lacquered. Ebony boards are typically not lacquered.

- the pickguard is not the typical Roger shape - if you post a couple of tight pix of the pickguard and the pickguard mount, it should be easy to provide more information.

- Roger Junior models typically do not have bound necks/headstocks. @1960, some were made this way, specifically for export to England for distribution by Boosey&Hawkes, with labels to match. Other unique features of that model were solid spruce pressed top plates and laminated or solid maple pressed back plates, with graduated arching like typical archtop guitars, although versions with solid wood "German-carve" top and back plates have been found, like yours. It would not surprise me if some of these necks ended up on models that were sold/distributed in Europe.

- Bartolini pickups are of the highest quality and very well-regarded. Their introduction pre-dates similar offerings from Kent Armstrong, Benedetto, Seymour Duncan and various other suppliers.

[Flowboy]

Yes, it is in fact a Boosey & Hawkes label import. (I think they sold a lot of basic instruments to schools when I was a kid, I recall seeing the labels fairly often).
I just noticed the photo is rather poor! I will update later.

I'm pleased to hear your opinion of the Bartolini, I was trusting it was a decent p.u. & it was one of the things that encouraged me to take the plunge. It's neatly fitted, with jack in the strap button, so fairly recent I should think. It sits a bit away from the strings, farther than the p.u.s on my other electrics, not sure if that's good or bad. Adjustment if needed will be a delicate task.
No truss rod but the neck is good. Intonation excellent. Rosewood fretboards I've never seen lacquered before, my 330 certainly isn't. I tend to associate it with maple boards
Some frets on 1st string side / edge have lifted very slightly which will need attention but I've adjusted the action enough to limit buzz for now & the action is still good.
Other than on a bass, I've never tried flat-wounds before, so may well experiment with a set, probably a bit heavier than the 9's or 10's that the seller fitted...

[Hammertone]

Typical Roger Jr. "American-style" pressed-top Junior model built for Boosey&Hawkes: