TI (Nickel) vs Stainless Tension - Does Tension Equal Sound?

[Dennis D]

Scratching my head, and your ideas appreciated.

Is the * lesser * tension of a * equal * string gauge the real beauty of the TI's ? ( or any make of nickel string ? )

And because you can have a thicker string - drive the top more - and not have that heavy feel - or tension on the guitar - -does / should this fact always dictate using a nickel string ?

And then, once you decide on nickel strings, should you, whenever possible, always go up one gauge ?

Thanks !

[skiboyny]

That's a tough question. My answer depends on the guitar. TIs are great strings to be sure. I do think personally that a nickle string sounds the best. It has complex overtones that I can hear acoustically. The low tension of the T'Is is appealing for me just for the play ability, that said I have a higher tension nickle derivative on 2 of my 3 guitars that are NOT T'Is. On the more acoustic of my guitars, the higher tension strings seem to drive the top harder bringing out the acoustic element a bit better. On these guitars the T'Is seem to sound great but only for a week. At that point they seem to loose the response I'm looking for. On my third guitar the opposite is true. I can play them for ever and they sound great. Go figure. As far as going up in gauge again my answer is again,depends on the guitar. For me It's lowest tension for the sound I'm looking for. No easy answer. You will use a lot of strings finding out what works best.

[vinlander]

I also agree heavier is not always better, depends on the guitar and if played acoustically or electrically.
While my Epi Emp Regent respond very well acoustically to heavy strings like D'Addario 13-56 and Labella 15-56 even if now set on TI JS113, my Tal on the other hand doesn't say so, in my opinion it responds better electrically to lighter JS112 over JS113...

[Jim Soloway]

I know that my approach to strings and tension is a bit different than most people here but I go for the lightest string I can get that will produce sufficient tension to articulate the notes cleanly in the tuning that I'm using. I don't worry about driving the top, only accommodating my hands. At the moment I'm mostly playing my Godin Kingpin ii with a 24.84" scale length. I have the guitar tuned down by three semitones to C# standard. I'm using a set of TI Swing Series 12's with the bottom string beefed up to a .54. It feels a lot like a set of 10's on a 24.75" scale length and it feels entirely right to my hands and amplified, it sounds right to my my ear.

[neatomic]

the reason why thomastiks are low tension is not because they are pure nickel wrapped per se, but because they have a thin inner round core...furthermore thomastik matches those cores evenly for a very balanced tension set...


so using the 11-47 swing set as an example


the swing set is a pure nickel wrapped flatwound...the high E &B strings are unwound steel..like all unwound strings made..they have the same tension as any 11 & 15 gauge string

however the wound strings-G,D,A & E have a thin inner round (as opposed to the newer and common hex core) steel core...and are then double wrapped with pure nickel

a typical usa made ss flatwound string has a thicker inner hex core and a wrap of stainless steel

its the thick inner core that creates higher tension even though the strings are identical in gauge

so think of it this way...(and i'm generalizing here-) inside a thomastik 25 gauge D string is say an 11 gauge inner core..whereas another companys 25 gauge wound string might have a 15 gauge inner core

amplified- a typical stainless steel/chrome string will be louder than the same gauged thomastiks due to the increased magnetic strength of the bigger inner core and the stainless steel wrap..

which is why pickup needs to be adjusted (higher) when moving from ss strings to pure nickels

cheers

[Dennis D]

I corrected my original post, but thankfully you folks got the right idea.

I did check and even a plain nickel string vs plain ss has .5 pounds less tension.

I sort of think there's a 'buzz factor risk' in TI 3 & 4 strings, because they're so thin. And if that's where their lower tension comes from, ( their core ) you'd wonder why there aren't more breakage issues.

I like the nickel sound - - and I'm comparing Pyramid nickels w/ TI's - -both flats - -both on acoustic archtops.

And I 'up-sized' both guitars from 12's to 13's. I really like now being able to pick hard at them both. I also just think there's an action / height penalty I'm paying due to the thin 3 & 4 strings -no matter which TI gauge set I get. .

Also I'm getting the feeling that the .52 Pyramid and the .53 TI 6th strings are both dead - sounding. I got the idea to try a .50 and be done with it.

Again, they're 2 L-7's and both are acoustics.

MHO, of course, and thanks !!

[neatomic]

that's the mix up!!

there are only plain unwound steel (usually labeled as carbon steel or swedish steel) strings..not nickel!! the high e & b strings of all sets are made of steel..as well as any unwound g strings

d'addario makes unwound steel strings used for the high e,b and g string in guages from 07 to 26

D'Addario Strings : Electric Singles : Plain Steel Singles


pure nickel is only used on the outer wrap...the inner core of all strings is steel..whether they are wrapped with pure nickel, stainless steel/chrome or nickel plated steel...

cheers

[Dennis D]

I just looked at Just Strings and they show in their single string section D'Add. pure nickel plain strings....

Electric Guitar Pure Nickel Single Strings

....I could get a .50 TI flat for Low E, , and then 2 nickel D'Add.'s for 1 & 2, then buy a set of Chromes......and be into a set for about Jazz Swing money, but w/ heavier 3 & 4.......


....and yes they've already put a man on the moon.......


thanks !!

[Dennis D]

I just looked at Just Strings and they show in their single string section D'Add. pure nickel plain strings....

Electric Guitar Pure Nickel Single Strings

....I could get a .50 TI flat for Low E, , and then 2 nickel D'Add.'s for 1 & 2, then buy a set of Chromes......and be into a set for about Jazz Swing money, but w/ heavier 3 & 4.......


....and yes they've already put a man on the moon.......


thanks !!

Oops - -their gauges for these start at .23.....geez...who decided on that ??

.....sorry......

[neatomic]

that's it..you're adding the "plain"!! those are pure nickel wound stings..and they are roundwound! not flats


i always keep a few packs of d'addario high e & b plain/unwound string gauges around...they sell 5 packs of any gauge..so you can get a 5 pack of (say) 11's..and sub them, to make your own gauged sets..tho i wouldn't recommend mixing thomastik pure nickel wound strings with d'addario wound chromes!

confused??..haha

cheers

[Dennis D]

that's it..you're adding the "plain"!! those are pure nickel wound stings..and they are roundwound! not flats


i always keep a few packs of d'addario high e & b plain/unwound string gauges around...they sell 5 packs of any gauge..so you can get a 5 pack of (say) 11's..and sub them, to make your own gauged sets..tho i wouldn't recommend mixing thomastik pure nickel wound strings with d'addario wound chromes!

confused??..haha

cheers

Boy oh boy......thanks for taking the time to clarify that.

So - - the only nickel in either TI's or Pyramid's Flats is in the wrap of the wound strings ?


Yes my face is red, and thanks again !!

[neatomic]

yes!..but thats what makes all the difference in the world!!! the pure nickel outer wrap!! tone wise- it's a thing of beauty!!

vintage solid warm full tone

that nickel wrap is what seperates them from all the usa made flatwound strings..which are stainless steel/chrome (same) wrapped

then factor in, that thomastik uses a double wrap of that (beautiful, but pricey) pure nickel over a thin inner round core-low tension...and you have what many consider the perfect strings for many applications...

cheers

[Dennis D]

yes!..but thats what makes all the difference in the world!!! the pure nickel outer wrap!! tone wise- it's a thing of beauty!!

vintage solid warm full tone

that nickel wrap is what seperates them from all the usa made flatwound strings..which are stainless steel/chrome (same) wrapped

then factor in, that thomastik uses a double wrap of that (beautiful, but pricey) pure nickel over a thin inner round core-low tension...and you have what many consider the perfect strings for many applications...

cheers

" Well, I'll be ".......( ' - said the man, as he threw out all his notes and started over ' -).

Thanks again......

[Jabberwocky]

Part of the charm of T-I strings is the thin round core. D'add Chromes have hexagonal core.

You should give the Newtone Archtop Strings a whirl. John Pearse Acoustic-Electric Pure Nickels or Acoustic Pure Nickels; the difference lies in the gauge of the lower four. They are all round-core strings.

[Dennis D]

Part of the charm of T-I strings is the thin round core. D'add Chromes have hexagonal core.

You should give the Newtone Archtop Strings a whirl. John Pearse Acoustic-Electric Pure Nickels or Acoustic Pure Nickels; the difference lies in the gauge of the lower four. They are all round-core strings.

I may - -I still believe TI JS gauges are an issue, at least for me, anyway.

[Dennis D]

Part of the charm of T-I strings is the thin round core. D'add Chromes have hexagonal core.

You should give the Newtone Archtop Strings a whirl. John Pearse Acoustic-Electric Pure Nickels or Acoustic Pure Nickels; the difference lies in the gauge of the lower four. They are all round-core strings.

Those are both round wound on round core......so, first question - -what difference does the core make ? Hex or round, makes no difference to me if they sound the same.


I have to wonder if anyone has ever approached either of them to make a flat wound ?


Then I noticed John Pearse sells his pure nickels for $6.19 * a set * . TI sells one .050 Nickel Flat for $ 6.45.

What is wrong with this picture ??

[Jim Soloway]

Those are both round wound on round core......so, first question - -what difference does the core make ? Hex or round, makes no difference to me if they sound the same.


I have to wonder if anyone has ever approached either of them to make a flat wound ?


Then I noticed John Pearse sells his pure nickels for $6.19 * a set * . TI sells one .050 Nickel Flat for $ 6.45.

What is wrong with this picture ??

I just looked at the John Pearse site and there doesn't appear to be a flat wound set. Is that correct? (I also saw prices aorund $12 or $13 a set but a quick look at the resellers confirms the$6 retail price). I ask because I've been using TI Swing Series for most of the last 20+years and I'm technically an endorser but I've always found the price a PITA even at an endorser's discount but I've just never found another strings that sounds as good to me over the long run. (Fortunately I go through strings very slowly).

[skiboyny]

I may - -I still believe TI JS gauges are an issue, at least for me, anyway.

I agree with you there. You can mix and match but it gets awfully expensive. I've been searching for the perfect string for 30 years haven't found it yet. You wouldn't think it would be that hard.

[Dennis D]

I just looked at the John Pearse site and there doesn't appear to be a flat wound set. Is that correct? (I also saw prices aorund $12 or $13 a set but a quick look at the resellers confirms the$6 retail price). I ask because I've been using TI Swing Series for most of the last 20+years and I'm technically an endorser but I've always found the price a PITA even at an endorser's discount but I've just never found another strings that sounds as good to me over the long run. (Fortunately I go through strings very slowly).

Jim I respect your honesty, and pretty much agree with you about how they sound - -meaning good !! But to get the TI in gauges I prefer, I'd have to mix and match, as skiboyny suggests, but as he said, that does get expensive.


I guess what I really have to wonder is - -what hasn't it hasn't occurred ( yet ? ) to someone at JohnPearse, that we jazz guys are paying 3 times as much per set more for flats than he gets for his nickel rounds ? Or why it hasn't occurred to someone at Newtone that we're already paying twice what they sell their nickel r/w ' arch' series for ?

Or go to D'Add and tell them : " Ok - you guys already make nickel round strings - how much would a set w/ Chromes gauges be with nickel wraps ?? " " Do you know you could almost double that twelve bucks we now pay for your stainless wraps - per set ?? "....

And even if it costs three times as much to make nickel flats ( doubtful ) - Pearse could sell his nickel flats for 18 bucks a set.


?

[Jim Soloway]

Jim I respect your honesty, and pretty much agree with you about how they sound - -meaning good !! But to get the TI in gauges I prefer, I'd have to mix and match, as skiboyny suggests, but as he said, that does get expensive.

My basic set is also custom with a heavier bottom string and yes, it is very expensive.

[neatomic]

just for info..almost every usa string company makes pure nickel roundwounds..d'addario, ghs- makes a few, dr -pure blues, dunlop, d'addario made fender brand, ernie ball..etc etc

its with flatwounds, they fall "flat"..i think that aside form cost, the reason is they believe that flatwounds being inherently (dull) to begin with, benefit from the extra magnetic output/ brightness of stainless steel...ernie ball has just recently issued a cobalt flatwound bass string..which is the brightest metal outer wrap...
write to the string companies..and ask'em...i'm sure they aren't even aware

plus as i said ^, just the pure nickel wrap alone, does not make it a thomastik!!!

cheers

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I did check and even a plain nickel string vs plain ss has .5 pounds less tension.

I don’t think there are any plain (ie unwound) nickel strings. All unwound strings in all sets are steel, AFAIK. So are the cores in all wound strings. TI plates unwound strings with brass, but they’re still steel strings.

In addition to having round cores rather than hex, TIs are lower tension than other strings of the same nominal gauge because TI uses an older European conversion factor when specifying string diameter (which they base on the millimeter rather than the inch).

The German (“Zoll”) inch is converted to 2.63 cm and the standard inch for almost everybody else is 2.54 cm. TI makes their strings to metric system sizes and converts to inches for the rest of the world. Chromes and almost all other strings are made to an inch scale, and the mm equivalents they provide are calculated from the actual size in inches. Here’s an old post about this:

I'm not sure that TI adopted a modern standard for measuring - they seem to be using the same one they've used since they converted from coal to electricity. Here's the TI tension chart for Jazz Swings. They show a nominal 0.013" string as being 0.32 mm rather than the closer 0.33, which calculates to 0.01259". So a TI sold and labeled as 0.013" is actually 0.0126. The same conversion "adjustment" applies to all of their strings, but a very few are not smaller than others of the same nominal size. Their 16 is actually a 15.7 and their 53 is actually 52.7 - but their 50 is exactly 0.050". This is one reason that their tension chart is a bit different from others for the same nominal sizes.

Avery, look at the unit weights on the charts you reference. The GHS 0.011 unit weight is 0.00002954 pounds per inch. The D’Addario is 0.00002680 and the Rotosound chart does not specify unit weight. I assume these are not identical because the alloys are slightly different, but it could be from multiple other causes including minor differences in mean diameter, variance in diameter, measurement tolerances, production tolerances, etc. You say that you calculated the tensions, so you must have used the stated unit weights, although I don’t see one for Rotosound. If you used the same frequency, length, and unit weight for all 3, you’d get the exact same tension. So that minor variation in string weight per inch is the reason you got slightly different values. Why unit weight differs I don’t know and cannot find out with a simple internet search. Where did you find a unit weight for a Rotosound 0.11?