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so i figured i'd trot out the old gretsch g400 for some tracking. man, i spent all night trying to get a decent sound of that stupid thing. sounds great in the room, sounds great coming out the amp, but as soon as the red light goes on, instant ass. granted, the strings are really old, but i like the dry, clanky sound it gives.
at first i was able to get some interesting tones by combining a close mic with the amp sound, but ultimately, after much experimentation, i decided to defy convention and i mic'ed the guitar's upper bout, about where the pickguard meets the body, or just past that, from about a foot away. that ended up being the best and most representative sound, with the least amount of eq'ing. i did end up scooping out some mids, and adding just a hint at the upper and lower extremes.
try as i might, though, i just couldn't get a decent sound from the usa kent armstrong/jc77 combo. sounds awesome in the room, but the mics just were not having it.
so that sucked, but at least i have a decent starting point. some fresh strings and more talent should help, too. i don't have the best stuff or room, but i should be able to get more than decent results. i'll go watch some sound pure demos for ideas, i guess.
any other struggles/insights out there?
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06-12-2016 11:56 AM
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I have my own struggles recording an archtop. I think it's because what I'm hearing in the room is a combination of the amp and the guitar. It's difficult to record the two sounds and get them in balance but just recording the amp lacks the sparkle that I hear from the guitar.
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I use two mics, but don't even try to record the room sound. One for amp sound one for acoustic guitar sound. It took me a long time to find the mics i like. At the moment i favor a Schoeps MK4 in front of the guitar for acoustic sound, about ten to fifteen centimeters away from the top and a Sennheiser MD441 or Royer R101 in front of the amp. Good quality mic-preamps help to get better results too. With the right amount of blending i can usually get away without need to eq the sound.
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I recently bought a couple of Beyerdynamic ribbon mics for recording amps with an archtop. If you search the web you will find that ribbon mics are preferred by many for this purpose. I'm awaiting delivery of a Manley preamp to complete my newly reassembled home studio. Once I'm all set I will be experimenting with mic placement.
I'm of the opinion that close micing an amp is not always the way to go, and hoping that by placing a ribbon mic 2-3 feet from the speaker, with a condenser as a room mic, I'll capture what my ears are hearing in the room. I'll let you know the results.
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Most home recordings I hear are butchered by SoundCloud or YouTube. So gorgeous guitars and amps recorded with great mics and pres loaded to those services reminds of the old adage; Measure it with a micrometer, mark with chalk and cut it with an axe.
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Check out Joe De Nisco's set-up in his Gibson 17" Solid Formed thread.
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Here's a demo i recorded a couple of months ago with a clarinet player. I did the comping on a LeGrand plugged into a Clarus/Raezer's Edge combination and used the Schoeps MK4 in front of the top, as well as a Royer R101 and a RodeNT2 in about 10cm distance from the speaker. Couldn't use the Sennheiser MD441 as this seemed to be the perfect choice for the clarinet. The short solo i overdubbed on a L5 into the Clarus/Raezer's Edge utilizing only the Royer and NT2 in front of the speaker because i wanted a different timbre.
http://web128.login-4.hoststar.ch/So...ouldHappen.mp3
(butchered from wav to mp3 ;-))
With multiple mics you also have to watch out that the different mics are more or less in phase.
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Nice sound JazzNote! Very nice playing as well---both comping and soloing. Sounds like the clarinet player, even though he's not playing alto sax, has listened a lot to Paul Desmond, which is not a bad thing at all!
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Thanks jbucklin. Yep, Paul Desmond though "disregarded" by some is an incredible musician. As time moves on i can enjoy the mature beauty of his music more and more.
Originally Posted by jbucklin
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Back in the 80s I bought several of the Mosaic boxed vinyl sets, one of which was the complete Paul Desmond and Jim Hall Quartets. Although, like many at that time, I was only familiar with Desmond through his recordings with Brubeck and never thought much of him. Listening to those beautiful quartet recordings with Jim Hall set me straight as I began to realize that he is one of the great improvisers of all time. Straight out of the school of Lester Young (but on alto!), he could easily have been the "5th brother" of the "4 brothers"---Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, Herbie Steward, and Serge Chaloff. Originally Posted by JazzNote
He and Jim Hall together were a match made in heaven.
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i've done some neat two mic set ups in the past, usually with a dynamic on the grill and a ribbon about a foot back. sounds great, but it takes up a lot of space in a mix, and then i usually run into trouble trying to pan and/or combine them. so i want to simplify things as much as possible, to keep things clean and easy, and because i'm the engineer, mixer and "talent". its soo frustrating to have to wear so many hats; takes most of the fun out of it for me.
a quick direct recording test through various preamps went pretty poorly, but i've always hated guitars recorded direct.
since a few others could use some attention, i think i may just break down and have the gretsch set up and put some new strings and stuff on it, and then reassess. i'm hoping it could keep me from having to buy another acoustic, like a j45, in addition to the archtop-y stuff it does.
jazznote- some fancy playing there. most of that gear (and ability) is far above my pay grade. the schoeps and neumann sdcs keep coming up for acoustics, but i'm just not there yet. an sm81 into a shadow hills gama pre is my acoustic chain for now, and it should be more than enough. i've considered trying stereo/multi mic setups (i have a pair of fathead iis) but that's a lot of set up/break down for one guy. i just need quick, dependable results.
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I think with a sm81 you have a very good mic which you could use for acoustic sound in front of the guitar as well as in front of the amp. It's just a bit harsher than the Schoeps but still great sounding. I'd suggest to try the combination of ribbon close to the amp and sm81 aiming close at the top of the guitar where it sounds best (i like the area between the treble f-hole and the tailpiece on my Gibsons) Originally Posted by feet
I know very well about the "multi pressure" problem (producer/engineer/mixer/talent) but experience solved this problem for me. By now i can enjoy it because it allows one to control a lot more than what would be possible by serving "only" one function.
Best of luck to you!
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Desmond did a lot of music early in the morning, after he got up and it always had this fresh clean new day kind of sound in many of the tunes he did. Originally Posted by JazzNote
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I hated that, which is why I quit doing it and sold everything. Drove me freaking crazy, and is why I'm a bit apprehensive about starting up again. I'm bartering with a student who's helping me set everything up. Wish I could find someone to do the engineering for me. Originally Posted by feet
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Recording is not easy. It takes practice.
Experiment with mic placement. If you have a good sound in the room, you are half way there!
Here is a good tutorial from a master, George Massenberg.
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This one is interesting too:
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In addition, I will often record a direct out from the guitar & blend it with the mic'd cabinet. The direct out is often very clear/ crisp & the mic'd sound adds depth/ dimension. I like the U/A 610 solo for a direct sound and I typically mic with an AEA R84 into a DWFearn pre as well as a SM57 into a seventh circle audio T15. Just another approach.
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OP - if you have mics that good..
Are you recording the Amp Sound and the" Guitar Body" sound on two different tracks and then mixing them together later
( try mostly Amp sound and mixing in as little as possible of the Acoustic Sound)-
Also Solo the acoustic sound and get good placement for the Mix- don't use any EQ at mixer till you play with these.
Have a reference Recording thru same Monitors of a Famous Guy you like and listen occasionally to refresh your ears / mind.
If you do this a lot and record results- two weeks later...you will say...hey that sounds GOOD...what was I doing then ?
A more sophisticated way is to mic the Studio Monitor at low volume & record on a parallel track and mix a little of that in for 'air' high end etc. Sounds crazy but can work really well.
You position the mic on the monitor at low volume so no feedback more controllable/ variable than micing the Guitar in some ways.
When you mix in to the Amp Sound usually a little goes a long way...
Also you can do the same thing with a not too close mic on the Amp AND another mic as far as you are from the Amp or less.
Two different tracks mixing together..there is a slight delay with distant micing a few milliseconds which softens and smears the sound in a good way.
Your standard close mic is 'hearing' what you would hear if you were 6 inches from your Amp which you never are!
So as a few have said close micing may not always work but a combination may.
Or a happy medium.Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-17-2016 at 11:14 AM.
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more time on my hands tonight so i'll take another stab at this before i get fancy- been considering a fishman aura for the flattops. wonder what happens when you pair that with the archtop. i will try a di sound through my various preamps and see what that yields vs the the amp and the acoustic sound.
some interesting videos. i like the massenburg idea of one dark and one bright mic. going to be difficult for me to pull off, as i only have two available mic tracks at any given moment, and sometimes other things are going on simultaneously.
what was comforting/disheartening about the soundpure video was that, in isolation, neither mic sounded all that great. pretty crappy, really. it wasn't until you blend and balance until they sounded nice, and "honest", or more accurate, if you like. so their crappy tones aren't that far off from mine, they just have more resources and hands on deck to put them together. i see they often go stereo or on mic around ear level to get more of the player's perspective, but that'll be nearly impossible for me to pull off easily and reliably.
i'm not certain my room sounds good enough to mic from further than a foot away. in addition to that, i'm more likely to get bleed from other sounds in the room, and the dreaded sounds from outside (which are often a problem).
i sometimes use a looper to help with amp mic placement, but between the volume, bleed and latency, that doesn't work as well as i'd like it to.
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ok, update-
i revised a few tactics. first, i did some mic experimentation and decided the best position was pointed at the fretboard, about where the body meets the neck, from 6-12" away, give or take. this gives the articulation you get from the 12th fret, but a little more warmth from the body without being boomy and dark, as it was when i had it pointed at the upper bout.
second, i took the (kent armstrong usa) pickup signal (tone rolled back about halfway) and went straight into my di/preamp. as you can probably imagine, it sounds like ass. but with a little eq trimming, it worked out ok when blended with the mic signal.
the mic is crisp, clear and articulate and the di provides some low end and warmth. the mic solo'ed sounds ok, if a little thin. the di solo'ed sounds like a dark wave of garbage, but somehow fills things out. panning the signals out to about 20-25 r/l give it a little dimension and left a nice hole for vocals or bass. a little reverb and some compression from the cheap built in plug ins and the end result was... sort of ok-ish! much better than my recent experiements, and more natural/realistic than some of my previous layered, effected efforts.
i'll keep messing with it, but i'm much more pleased than i was before. only thing is that, in successfully avoiding having to get a pedal or preamp to digitally enhance things like i had thought, i may have to buy a third preamp, which is way more expensive. :| so, yeah. but... progress, right?
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