Classic Jazz Sound

[Max405]

Gibson Tal Farlow through a Polytone Minibrute II
Guys, I don't have proof in the form of a recording but please take my word for it, this is the best Warm Jazz sound I've ever heard through my own hands. I took this combo out yesterday and played a dinner hour job outdoors and it killed. I actually had the Henricksen with me too. The H sounded very nasally with the Tal for some reason. But it was there for backup (something I do if I don't have a bass players amp to use as backup).
The old Polytone (courtesy of my friend MedBlues) stayed strong without breakup for over an hour and a half, outside, in beaming sunlight and temps that reached 93 degrees (at least 90% humidity) here in ridiculously unpredictable New Jersey.
Our setlist included Breezin, This Masquerade and Affirmation as well as a bunch of Micheal Buble cover songs. I know George said he played the Breezin album through a Fender amp with some Vibrato (by accident) but I swear to you guys, the Polytone was Georgin' it up. I added an MXR phaser for Feels So Good and that was very convincing.
Settings;
Amp; Volume max at 5, Bass and treble set at 12 o'clock.
Guitar; tone at 9-10, used only the neck pickup. I wish that was the only pickup on the guitar.

I used the the guitar volume to control the blend.

Setting was outdoors, in a gazebo (Thank god)..

Tal and Polytone.. God invented this combination.

[jbucklin]

How old is your Polytone?

[Max405]

Not sure. Part of the label is worn off. The serial# is 18148.

[Stringswinger]

I have AB'd a Polytone minibrute against a vintage Princeton (which was a heavily favored studio amp for jazz guys in the 60's) and found them to have a similar voice. I think Tommy Gumina and his engineers were after a Fender sound when developing these amps. A Gibson archtop through a Polytone delivers classic jazz guitar tone. No doubt about that.

[citizenk74]

Gazebos are lifesavers on outdoor gigs, providing both shade and reflective surfaces. Sounds like you had a great gig. Congrats, and keep on jazzin'!

[AlsoRan]

Is there anything like being able to play at the volume you want AND with the tone that you want ON the equipment you want? I believe it inspires you to play better.

I call it giving yourself an "eardrum massage," and if others want to join in on the "aural orgy," hey, the more the merrier.

[GNAPPI]

Y'know Joe, there are some that scoff at the term "warm" when someone describes the sound of a git.

I think they likely never played a warm sounding instrument.

The Tal is one that sounds great in every amp I own, so much so I would never use it to try a potentially new amp.

[Greentone]

A Tal Farlow and a MiniBrute II. Heck, yes! That is a recipe for tone for days.

I looked up in the night sky last night and saw a satellite orbiting across the backdrop of the stars. At least, I thought it was a satellite. Now, I realize it was brother Joe up in orbit from having such a great gig--armed with such a great rig.

Tommy Gumina hit on a pretty good formula with those old MiniBrutes. My son owns one and I own five, at last count. (This from a dyed in the wool Fender guy.)

[mr. beaumont]

Y'know Joe, there are some that scoff at the term "warm" when someone describes the sound of a git.

I think they likely never played a warm sounding instrument.

The Tal is one that sounds great in every amp I own, so much so I would never use it to try a potentially new amp.

Lol, that'd be me.

I've never played a "cold" sounding instrument, I can tell you that.

[Greentone]

Mr. Beaumont,

Hmm? I have played a cold sounding guitar. A Les Paul, played through a sterile, flat sounding solid-state bass amp, sounds quite cold. It's something about the lack of "woodiness," IMO. Combine this with a really clean, no-reverb bass amp and you get a lifeless tone. I played a Les Paul Custom into an old Spectra bass amp once. Nothing happening. Even a 335 into the same amp produced a wee bit of jazzy sound. Same with a Telecaster.

I suspect that the construction of the Les Paul is so structurally rigid that the sound is almost exclusively the vibrating string being picked up by the pickup(s). If the amp is very dry, then you get a sound not unlike plugging into a stereo receiver and listening on headphones. Etched, analytical, etc.

[mr. beaumont]

Why would you make your assessment of how a guitar sounds plugged into a bass amp?

[Greentone]

Hmm? Bass amps often make very good jazz amps. Consider, for example, the Polytone MiniBrute I and III. Those amps sound OUTSTANDING with a good archtop--or with a Telecaster, for that matter. The Les Paul, though, sounded pretty cold and lifeless through one, particular bass amp.

Of course, Les Pauls can sound anything but lifeless when you let them rip in a good tube amp. Then wouldn't, however, be my first choice for jazz. Here, for example, is Larry Coryell playing a Les Paul Custom on "Autumn in New York." Great playing, but the tone is pretty cold, to me...Les Paul through a clean amp, IMO.

[GNAPPI]

Lol, that'd be me.

I've never played a "cold" sounding instrument, I can tell you that.

I have, strats and telecasterd. I love them but they always sound cold and sanitary

[jbucklin]

Of course, Les Pauls can sound anything but lifeless when you let them rip in a good tube amp. Then wouldn't, however, be my first choice for jazz. Here, for example, is Larry Coryell playing a Les Paul Custom on "Autumn in New York." Great playing, but the tone is pretty cold, to me...Les Paul through a clean amp, IMO.

I bet Larry C. plays that tune now with a deeper understanding of the mood that its melody conveys. Also, I agree that his choice of guitar was way off.

[oldane]

I think a thread like this (there have been many of them) suffer from a lack of definiton of "cold" and " warm". It quickly becomes a matter of semantics. One mans "cold" is another mans "clear". One mans "warm" is another mans "muddy and undefined".

[Greentone]

Oldane,

That's a very good point. Cold/clear, warm/muddy...hmm? OTOH, I think most jazz guys from the 50s onward--at least up to about '69, when fusion hit hard--played very clearly, yet warmly. Jim Hall's tone was clear, but it possessed a characteristic warmth that came from playing a P90-equipped ES-175 into a Gibson GA-50T tube amp...a very classic jazz rig. Les Paul, OTOH, had many hit records playing low-impedance pickup equipped guitars straight into the board. To me, his tone is clear, but more on the Coryell/Autumn end of the spectrum.

I'd bet if you put an oscilloscope to the signal of a 1950s Jim Hall recording and to a 1950s Les Paul recording, you'd see some key differences. I'm just conjecturing now, because I haven't done this myself. However, I'd expect that the frequency spectrum of the ES-175 would look quite different from the Les Paul guitar--or whatever Mr. Paul was recording with--because the 175 was inherently much less stiff and interacted with the vibrating string much more. Secondly, I'd bet that the level of harmonic distortion of an even order in the Jim Hall signal, though it is a clean signal, would nonetheless be greater than in the more "hi-fi" sounding Les Paul recording signal.

I had to listen critically to Les Paul's Capitol box set 25 years ago for an article I was commissioned to write for a magazine. I also got to interview Les, who was a very nice, expansive guy. I found his playing to be high energy. He was very innovative. His tone, however, was uniquely "clinical" sounding when compared with most of the jazzy players of the day. This was a conscious choice of Les'. His signal really cut through on the radios and TVs of the day. Les explained that he knew he was going to lose a ton of signal (high end, predominantly) by recording sound-on-sound in the days before he got AMPEX to build him an 8-channel machine. Thus, he began with a super hot--read, trebly--signal. Compared to Tal, Herb, Barney, etc., this sounded downright "icy."

I bet the public knew in two notes, though, when they were listening to Les Paul. All the archtop guys, however, sounded more or less the same to folks with uncritical ears back in the day. People probably thought Les Paul was plugged into high tension lines, his signal was so hot and spiky. BOOM! I don't know how high the moon is, but Les was on it.

Now, I've really mucked up the works by using the term "hot" to describe what I mean by _cold_. Here's the deal: if the signal is full of heavy treble content _and_ it lacks the sort of second-order harmonic distortion to be found in a push-pull tube amp signal (Hall recorded with an amp, Les right into the board), then even if the signal is recorded at a high signal level (i.e., hot), it is a cold signal. If it is played cleanly and clearly (Hall), but it is done with an archtop into a classic tube amp with about 5-10% push-pull tube harmonic power-amp distortion, it is a warm signal.

[mr. beaumont]

In guitar speak, "warm" = "I like it."

[Max405]

A Tal Farlow and a MiniBrute II. Heck, yes! That is a recipe for tone for days.

I looked up in the night sky last night and saw a satellite orbiting across the backdrop of the stars. At least, I thought it was a satellite. Now, I realize it was brother Joe up in orbit from having such a great gig--armed with such a great rig.

Tommy Gumina hit on a pretty good formula with those old MiniBrutes. My son owns one and I own five, at last count. (This from a dyed in the wool Fender guy.)

GT, Thanks buddy.
This amp has really grown on me big time. Initially I wasn't blown away by it, but now I really hear what all the hoopla is about.
JD

[Greentone]

Warm _can_ be the same thing as "I like it," in many instances. However, I use warm to mean what I explained. Often (mostly) I choose a warm sound. Sometimes, though, I choose a cold sound. When I am playing a Zappa chart, for example, I choose a clean, articulate, thinner sound. A Les Paul or a Stratocaster through a solid-state amp would achieve this.

The typical Zappa chart would have two guitar lines. Guitar #1 would be a staccato guitar played very cleanly. I think Zappa originally used something like a Super 400 or L5 through a very clean amp on "Freak Out." Later, he switched to Stratocasters and SGs. He often used Acoustic brand solid-state amps. The Guitar #2 would be slide guitar, often with effects. Originally, this was done by Lowell George, who swiped much of Zappa's band to form Little Feat. For years and years, this position subsequently was handled by the great Denny Walley. I got to play with Walley once; it was very humbling.

If I were asked to play, say, "Peaches en Regalia" from the great _Hot Rats_ album, I would probably use my Stratocaster through my Lab Series L-5 amp (solid state). Give it a listen. What do you think? Kind of cold, no?

[jbucklin]

I had to listen critically to Les Paul's Capitol box set 25 years ago for an article I was commissioned to write for a magazine.


Now, I've really mucked up the works by using the term "hot" to describe what I mean by _cold_. Here's the deal: if the signal is full of heavy treble content _and_ it lacks the sort of second-order harmonic distortion to be found in a push-pull tube amp signal (Hall recorded with an amp, Les right into the board), then even if the signal is recorded at a high signal level (i.e., hot), it is a cold signal. If it is played cleanly and clearly (Hall), but it is done with an archtop into a classic tube amp with about 5-10% push-pull tube harmonic power-amp distortion, it is a warm signal.

Not surprised, Greentone, that you wrote for a magazine. You are clearly a very gifted writer!

Also, your definitions of warm and cold are spot on, the comparison of Jim Hall's tone to Les Paul's being a perfect example.

[Max405]

Hmm? I have played a cold sounding guitar. A Les Paul, played through a sterile, flat sounding solid-state bass amp, sounds quite cold. It's something about the lack of "woodiness," IMO. Combine this with a really clean, no-reverb bass amp and you get a lifeless tone. I played a Les Paul Custom into an old Spectra bass amp once. Nothing happening. Even a 335 into the same amp produced a wee bit of jazzy sound. Same with a Telecaster.

I suspect that the construction of the Les Paul is so structurally rigid that the sound is almost exclusively the vibrating string being picked up by the pickup(s). If the amp is very dry, then you get a sound not unlike plugging into a stereo receiver and listening on headphones. Etched, analytical, etc.

GT, Its so funny you mentioned this. I played a Les Paul early on when I was with Silk. I bought a brand new KMD GV60 amp. It was a nice tube amp but it used to crap out on me a lot. When it did, I'd plug into my bass players amp. So one day, it crapped out on me for the last time. So when we packed up, I asked the roadies to leave it on the stage..

At home I had a Boogie Mark II and a Peavey Classic vtx. From that point forward, I would bring 2 amps to our shows, plug into the Boogie, put it on top of the Peavey and if the Boogie crapped out, I had the Peavey as a back up. The boy was prepared...

This was back in the early 80's at the Capital Theater.





Its hard to make out, but look at my little Boogie sittin way up high on top of my Peavey. Those were the days..
JD

[Greentone]

Aw...

Actually, that was the only magazine article I wrote. My one shot at that medium. Hmm? I must've blown it, now that I think about it. ;-)

The main thing was to get the press credential to be able to interview Les Paul, who was a big hero of mine.

[Greentone]

Cool pictures, JD. Very nice.

[lawson-stone]

Guys,
Last night I was drilling on a chorus of Jimmy Raney's related to a group on this forum that is learning some of his solos from an Aebersold set... anyhow... I was drilling a lot of serious bebop, playing my VOS 1959 ES175D through a Polytone Minibrute II and... about 10 minutes in, I realized it sounded absolutely perfect. It had that exact sound I associate with Joe Pass playing the ES175, or even Herb Ellis. I realized I'd forgotten about playing the lines right (though I was) because I was just digging the sound of the instrument and its perfectly matched amp.

A truly beautiful moment! I wish I could record it, but I know it would not come out the same.

I think the jazz guitar gods just gave me that to keep me pushing the sysphian rock up the hill...

[Greentone]

For 30 years I played a vintage 175 through a MiniBrute or BabyBrute. Even on a bad night people would come up and comment on the extraordinary tone of the rig. At times, I wish I never sold the 175, but then I wouldn't have my Super Eagle--which I cherish, too. Life is full of trade offs. I sure didn't sell the Polytones, however. I needed them to make the Super Eagles and subsequent archtops sound good.

(To tell you the truth, though, any of my archtops, when played through a tweed Deluxe Amp, captures the sound of Blue Note Records jazz from the 50s and early 60s. That's a very worthy sound, too. The Super Eagle into the Deluxe gets the sound of early Wes--when I can do my part, that is. It'll also do a worthy "Midnight Blue," even if Kenny Burrell did have a Charlie Christian pickup on that one.)

I envy Lawson his VOS--especially since I sold this: