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Buyers tip at the bottom
In recent years I tested a lot of humbucker jazz guitars to find the right guitar for me. This included 1960s Gibson ES, 60s Höfner, 70s Gibson ES-175, new € 3000,00+ Gibson ES-330, € 2800,00 Ibanez but also, € 1000,00 to 1200,00 archtops by Hagstrom, Eastman, Hofner, Guild, etc.
My reference to a good guitar sound, comes from 50s and 60s Gibson ES-175's I know from records I love. That's why most of us want this-or-that sound, I think. That's our refference.
IMO 16", hollow, laminated maple, archtop guitars, with mahogany necks and humbucker pickups, just give a certain sound. The Epiphone's just are closest to the familiar Gibson ES-175 sound. Maybe because Epiphone is the only guitar maker that is allowed to use all Gibson specs (Epiphone is owned by Gibson). But a Gibson is not always better then a Epiphone, or a Ibanez or ... (whatever) or vice versa. I noticed that individual instruments differ a lot and can make the difference between YES of NO. So...play before you judge.
Guitar sound in general. To me:
- 50% of your sound is made by you; the way you can or can't play, your phrasing, timing, etc,
- 15% of your sound are your fingers, nails, pick and how you use the pick!
- 15% of your sound is defined by the amp and effects you use
- 10% of your sound is the choice of pickup (this really matters a great deal)
- 5% of your sound is the strings you play
- 5% is the guitar you use.
So if I would put that Gibson 57 classic on a telecaster and put D'Addario flat wounds on it, play with my pick, play my music, my way, via my amp and effects then I should have 95% of my sound. Well, I think that really is true! Wether it fééls right to me, is a different story.
Of couse, a guitar should be built well, intonate correct, have the right action on the strings, etc. But apart from playing a good instrument, the choise of guitar is very much about 'how it feels in your hands'. It should be comfortable, balanced and easy to play. You know what; even a new € 500,00 Ibanez hollow body can have all of that!
Buyers tip: I play a new Epiphone ES-175 premium with the great Gibson 57 classic humbucker it comes with. All I need!
YouTube Erik te Kamp Guitars
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02-08-2016 07:57 AM
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I have a weak spot for "cheaper" guitars that sound and play a lot more expensive with some upgrades.
I did that with a Japanese ES-175 copy brand-named Condor (actually very similar to that Ibanez you are selling, with that same body body-shape that is slightly off compared to a Gibson, must be from the same factory!). I put a Burstbucker #1 in it, new bone nut and it did not sound any less than a friends '68 Gibson ES-175.
My early 90ies Epiphone Sheraton II got a lot better after I found the right humbuckers that really matched that guitar.
Next to upgrading cheaper guitars, I like project-guitars: I could obtain my 1948 ES-125 for cheap because someone had put a humbucker in it. It was fun putting it back to it's original state and for my it's a real vintage guitar and one of the best playing and sounding I have.
And of course then there are the rare guitars, one-offs, unknown brands or unusual guitars, like my Furch G-1 archtop (a $350 guitar that sounds and plays like a guitar at least 10x more expensive) and actually also my Gibson ES-333 falls into that category: all the ES-335 vibe you need for 1/3 the price.
I can imagine an Epiphone ES-175 premium with a classic 57 will get you very close to 'the real deal' or maybe even outshines the monday-morning duds....
But hey, we're Dutch, we want top notch stuff for a bargain price :-D
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IMHO while I agree with most of the tone coming from the fingers, 5% for the guitar appears to me quite low.
After months of playing my highly customized Epi Regent, the day I received my Tal Farlow, even my wife could hear a huge difference despite both guitars being 17 inches bout, 3 inches depth and 25.5 scale and I was playing in the same amp and with the same fingers and technique.
The overtones, the woodyness the low mid focus "thunk" caracteristic of Tal's tone was there.
The guitar construction and wood has much more impact on the tone than it appears.
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A little off-topic, but what humbuckers do you like in your Sheraton?
Originally Posted by Little Jay
Also maybe a bit about what you like about them?
I'm not entirely happy with mine . . .
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At the risk of hijacking the thread: Originally Posted by Longways to Go
I bought my Sheraton 2nd hand with a non-original humbucker (I think, it had no cover and seemed different) at the neck and that started to get microphonic at some point. I had no clue then, so I just bought a set of Seymour Duncan Classic 59s (I think they are now called SH-1) but those were not a good match with this particular guitar to my ears. It's an all maple guitar (except the center-block seems a very light kind of mahogany or related sort of wood) and it has a lot of treble from itself and a bit of a mid-scoop. The SD's emphasized that and made the guitar too shrill and thin when played live, especially the neck-pu, the bridge pu sounded ok, but I hardly use that. I did like the tone of the old humbucker I took out and it seemed a cheaper(?) Asian-made one. I figured a pu that's heavier on the mids and lacks some treble should suit the guitar better. I had a StewMac Golden Age set in my Japanese Condor that sounded quite dark in that guitar, so I put the Golden Age neck-pu in the Sheraton and the SD neck pu in the Condor and voilà! Both guitars profited from that swap! (Later the SD in the Condor got changed out for the Burstbucker #1).
The Sheraton sounds very good with the Golden Age to my ears! The bridge pu is still the Seymour Duncan and the middle position combining the two works very nice, especially for funky chord chops. So I could advise you the Golden Age in the neck position, but I suspect any 8.0K, Alnico5 pickup that boosts the mids a little and tempers the treble should work fine. The Golden Age is very reasonably priced though.
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Agree with the factors at play being numerous. The percentages are where the difficulty happens. You could probably divide "the sound" further into components such as attack, release, sustain, frequency content/EQ etc and the percentage weighting (if they can be quantified) will differ for different aspects of the sound. As Vinlander said, frequency content/EQ will be much less affected by the player's technique ("fingers") than all the rest of the downstream components.
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Wow, just think, I spent ten times more on my Tal Farlow than my Joe Pass for a 5% better sound, I'm bummed on one hand and elated on the other knowing that I can sell the Tal and play a used $350 beater instead.
Also... you left off the elusive "MAJOR" (sic) individual contributors to sound such as fretboard, bridge, tailpiece and nut material. We need a re-thinking of your numbers Erik :-)
Seriously, in principle I agree that many factors go into good sound and we (IMO) may give more weight to guitars than they deserve credit for.
BTW Erik, I also think the Gibson classic 57's are about the best they have made.
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Well, as for changing to a more acoustic guitar, you'll hear it more.
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Thanks! Well, the numbers do they're work. It make's you think about it. Maybe 5% is a bit low, but if you'dd compare 5 ES-175 type guitars, I still think the other factors weigh more then the guitar brand.
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I have a 1954 Gibson 175. There's a punch the old soap bar pickups had, so I'm not planning on getting rid of mine
but the thing about 60 year old archtops is that they ain't making any more of them. So bang for your buck, a good quality guitar that is affordable is a very good choice.
Epiphone and Ibanez make good trade quality instruments
I have always believed that it is not the arrow, but the Indian that makes a guitar player sound good
I remember when Oscar Petersen came to North Texas. I was walking down the hall and heard him warming up on one of the out of tune beater upright pianos in one of the theory classrooms. After hearing that, you'll never be able to convince me that a good player has to have a great instrument to play their ass off
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EriktK’s distillation below makes a lot of sense to me. Quick anecdote- I was at the NAMM convention[ where music manufacturers debut new gear, guitars, amps, pedals, the lot] in So Cal some years ago, Eddie Van Halen was on the convention floor walking past the rows of various guitars and gear and he stops for whatever reason, some guy approaches him with one or another budget Chinese import Les Paul for EVH to sign. He takes the guitar, signs it and the guy then asks Eddie to play it.
To his astonishment EVH bends down on one knee, plugs this horrible LP knock off into whatever tiny cheap amp was handy and plays, essentially blowing the roof off the joint for all who witnessed it. Did EVH's guitar sound reflect the Chinese import nature of the gear ? In a word 'no'. In fact it sounded exactly like EVH playing through his EVH tour gear on his EVH guitar.
I'm of the opinion that no matter what guitar or amp he played through that day, no matter how crappy the Chinese pickups or how thick a coating of poly there might've been on the guitar or how lifeless the amp may have been, despite all of that what comes through is EVH's playing, none of the rest is apparent to anyone who witnessed what I did, this among a room full of hyper-critical guitarists. Maybe the crappiness of the gear was apparent to EVH while he was shredding this guys LP knockoff but it didn’t appear to matter to EVH at all. Similarly, I think you could put that Chinese LP into the hands of Jim Hall, Pat Metheny, George Benson, Kenny Burrell or Joe Pass and gotten the same result- killer playing, killer tone.
Maybe it’s more like 75% of your sound is made by you, with 25% accounting for all of the other aspects.
Originally Posted by EriktK
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I am more and more becoming a believer that the art of making any equipment work for you so you can do your thing always and everywhere under all circimstances with any equipment is what makes a great musician.
I, for one, am far too much reliant of the sound I have: bad or different sound than what I like to hear and all of a sudden I can only play at half power. I don't like that at all and I'm looking for ways to overcome that.
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True but EVH is never going to get Joe Pass's sound either, is he? Originally Posted by electricfactory
;-)Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 02-09-2016 at 01:46 PM.
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Ha! True enough!
[QUOTE=Doctor Jeff;617145] Originally Posted by electricfactory
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50% of the tone comes from the fingers. That much I agree with. But the tonal difference between something like a laminated spruce top and laminated maple top on my two barney kessels is prominent enough that I have to disagree that the guitar only accounts for 5% and that the pickup makes more difference than the guitar and that the strings make more difference than the guitar. I think 50% of your analysis is approximately right.
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Well, to cut up "sound" in percentages of parts that sum up to it is bound to result in very subjective analyses, don't you think? I find I can change my sound completely by using a different plectrum, to me it feels like 50%, but is it? Let's conclude that the guitar itself plays a smaller role then we would like to admit to ourselves. But how about the relative importance of the parts? 5% can feel like 95% if they are lacking. I mean if you manage to jump over 95% of the canyon you still fall, right? ( Sorry if all of this doesn't make any sense....
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One aspect here I think is important, but hard to figure. Yes, indeed, a true Master of the Craft can take any old piece of junk and make it sound much better than you'd expect.
But non-Masters need an instrument that will take care of them. I'm serious. I play decent chord-melody stuff. But my line-playing pretty much sucks. I can cop a few arpeggios and tag a few licks, outline the changes, but it's not going to get me sitting in with Joshua Breakstone anytime soon.
But people love my playing in my little amateur gigs. What they love is the tone. I play guitars that are way above my class, for the most part. I play guitars, that if I get it half-right, the guitar will take me the rest of the way. I can play simple chords, and it sounds like honey. I can play my lame licks and arpeggios, and the right guitar, with the right pickup, and the right amp, makes it sound sweet.
Back when I taught beginning guitar, I always told parents to buy their kid the very best guitar they could afford, because that child won't continue if they don't like how their playing sounds. A crappy, cheap guitar in the hands of a crappy player can go nowhere. But a nice guitar, if the player will just not screw up everything, will make it sound great.
The few times I get it right playing, I'm glad I have guitars that won't let me down.
Then that sweet tone draws me onward, toward better playing, because I want more of that ear-candy.
No way to quantify the impact for talent, and no way to quantify how important a good instrument is to one who is somewhat lacking in talent.
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as the OP said, "how it feels in the hands", but also how the guitar makes the player feel. I'd probably sound just like me on just about any guitar, but on a 16" laminate with a 24.75" scale I'm at home. - the guitar isn't getting in the way.
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While most of you are hung up on tone I am more concerned about playing guitars that make me look taller, thinner and younger.
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Saying that a certain percentage of sound comes from a particular source is like the old nature/nurture debate. The "sources" interact. A guitar that feels good and sounds a particular way changes the way you play it ... maybe better, maybe worse than other instruments. To me, a guitar is like a dance partner. You do your steps but the way it responds has huge effects on what you do next. So both you and your partner contribute 100% to the final product. No guitar sounds good without someone playing it. No player sounds good without a guitar to play.
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Effect of guitar Originally Posted by ESCC
Height: 2%
Thinner: 1%
Younger: Give it up. It makes you look like you're trying to look younger. In other words a major loser.
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Here you go.
Last edited by Marty Grass; 02-09-2016 at 07:03 PM.
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Sure, but JP of all the major classic jazz guitarists did not have a particular sound. When he had full control of what equipment he used and what recordings were released - eg "Songs for Ellen" - he chose a spanish guitar; a long way from the Synanon solid body Fender; he didn't even want Virtuoso 1 released because of the cockup on the sound, but it increased his audience significantly; I rather like the quirkiness of his 12 string recording (was that the Stones cover album - I can't remember); the lushness of his D'Aquisto; etc etc blah blah blah.
Joe was a working class guy who played guitar for a living; he clearly loved weaving improvised lines more than anything - I don't think he was so bothered about the sound as long as it didn't grate on his neves too much.
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There's a video of Barney Kessel saying that the pickups are 90% of the sound - I always thought that was an overestimate; but I think your 5% is an underestimate.
If you can make a Telecaster sound like a 175 by putting in 175 pickups, I think that's because you played your 175 to sound like a Tele in the first place! Hey, just kidding, your youtube site is great, love the playing.
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Not really accurate. Joe played a straight up ES 175 for 20 years. After the Ibanez deal expired, he went right back with a 175 derived design that he used all the way to the end. "Songs for Ellen" was done when he was dying of cancer and hardly had strength to play at all. Originally Posted by sunnysideup
Joe Pass was also a co-developer of the Polytone amp. The company founder, Tommy Gumina, and Joe were very close friends and Joe discussed the ideal amp with Tommy extensively, with the Polytone resulting from that collaboration.
Joe liked to talk as if he was indifferent to gear. He also said he didn't like to play hard stuff, fast stuff, or use a pick. But he did all of that for as long as he was physically able to do so. I think sometimes Joe would say exactly the opposite of what he really did because he was a kidder, he liked pulling your leg. "I don't play anything hard or fast" oh yeah, right.Last edited by lawson-stone; 02-10-2016 at 12:27 PM.
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