-
I think most on line references will say to position the bridge so that the 2 E string 12th fret notes are the same as the 12 fret harmonics. However I think this process will result in some notes being sharp. I think this is how a luthier just set mine for me.
I find in practice I like to position it so that all of the 12th fret notes are equal to the harmonic and if I can't get them all equal I will let the others be slightly flat. I take the view that I can subconsciously compensate for a string that goes flat up the neck but there's nothing I can do about one that goes sharp up the neck.
Just wondering what others do.
-
01-31-2016 05:07 PM
-
with a non compensatable wooden bridge saddle you have to intonate as many strings as you can correctly and hope the rest fall into place...thats why the tune-a-matic was born!!!
the general way was get the two end E strings right and hope for the best...the thinking being they were the extremes of the saddle position..but if an unwound g is used..that string needs compensation...
you can use the a & b strings but your chances are still slim that your intonation will ever be spot on for all six
type of string ie gauge affects as well
hah
cheers
ps- if you like the rosewood or ebony bridge saddle (who doesn't?) but you use an unwound g..you can get a compensated wood bridge..that has the g string part of the saddle further backLast edited by neatomic; 01-31-2016 at 05:46 PM. Reason: ps-
-
Hi DOM
Here's how I go about it...
Set low action.
Intonate the A and B string harmonic on the 19th fret to the fretted 19th.
Then check the two E string 12th fret harmonic against the fretted 12th, it should be close.
Then tune up your guitar like this....
Tune bottom E to pitch then pluck the 5th fret harmonic and tune the top E to it.
Pluck the bottom E harmonic on the 12th fret and tune the D string fretted at the second fret (E) to it.
Pluck the D harmonic on the 12th fret and tune the B string fretted at the third fret (D) to it.
Fret the B string at the 8th fret (G) and tune the G string 12th fret harmonic to it.
Fret the G string at the second fret (A) and tune the open A string to it.
The B string will probably be slightly flat so strumming a few 5 chords (no Maj/min 3rds, 7's etc) that takes in the B and G strings.
Phew!
Or watch this vid....
-
I only have wood saddles on non-cut away guitars, that keeps me from having to deal with 'up the neck' intonation issues.a string that goes flat up the neck but there's nothing I can do about one that goes sharp up the neck.
-
All the strings ring true across the wooden saddle supplied by Ibanez except for the wound G which is about 6 cents flat compared to the harmonic fretted at the 12th fret. The open G is at pitch. It has a set of D'addario Chromes 12-52 on it. That is according to the LCD tuner in the Fender Mustang 3 V2.
Is there a reason for the slightly flat fretted G? I have 2 Made in China Ibanez jazz boxes and they have the same "feature".
The other thing is this: played acoustically, the B string sounds louder than the G, up and down the Ibanez neck. I tried as much as humanly possible to apply equal picking force.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 01-31-2016 at 11:51 PM.
-
Do you have a bridge made for an unwound G? An unwound G will also be louder.
-
I don't know. The wooden saddle was in the Ibanez guitar case. They are both archtops (AF105NT and SJ500VLS) so I would expect Ibanez to know that nobody uses plain Gs with archtops...or do they?
Originally Posted by icr
Other than the G, the intonation of the other 5 strings across the wooden saddle ring true. Quite amazing for a factory guitar when you think about it.
I just may have to have a luthier carve a new saddle or get one of those Sadowsky True Tone saddles. Or go back to an ABR-1 TOM saddle.
It does sound very nice with a wooden saddle. And my hearing is not that good that it bothers me, truth be told.
(I tend to hear things sharp. A=440Hz sounds flat to me. A=442Hz to 443Hz sounds right on to me. Perhaps my old record player, an ancient Linn LP12 Basik, was spinning a teeny wee bit fast...)
-
On my archtop guitars I have the bridges where the top is almost a straight line. I have Eastman archtops and one Benedetto Bravo. Both the Eastman and Benedetto have similar bridges. I have been using flats with a wound 3rd.
-
I have several Ibanez archtops I use compensated wooden bridges the intonation is very good on them, if neccessary angle the the bridge slightly, some of my Ibanezes came with 2 wooden bridges 1 compensated 1 not and TOMs as well. Jazzbows method is very good, I also tune to pitch then check octaves all the fretboard like Herb Ellis did.
-
i've got an ibanez with a non-compensated Originally Posted by DanielleOM
bridge ...
intonates fine with fat flat TI strings too
-
Thank you, Para. You just solved it. My Ibanez archtops came with 2 wooden saddles each; I thought Ibanez was being unusually generous to supply two wooden saddles. So, one of them is compensated and the other isn't!!!! I must have used the one compensated for a plain G string with a wound G string as luck would have it. Originally Posted by Para
DUH!Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-01-2016 at 10:10 AM.
-
Out of the sets I have tried lately, TI Jazz Swing, Pyramid flat (round core), GHS900, the TI's seemed the best from an intonation point of view with that bridge. Anyone try Labella flat with that style of bridge? (almost a straight line as used by Eastman, Benedetto)
-
Love Martin Taylor's playing, love the Peerless guitar but that is a terribly misleading (and in many places outright wrong) video. Wow.
The 12th fret is not in the center of the nut-to-bridge scale and inharmonicity is not at all the main reason why some chords/notes sound "wrong".
-
Inharmonicty and tempered tuning are not the same thing at all.
He drifts from one subject to the other making a real mess.
Then he drifts to vibration amplitude, and makes even more of a mess.
Great player. Maybe not so great a video.Last edited by Bezoeker; 02-01-2016 at 08:59 PM. Reason: less jackass wording on my part.
-
I worked for a piano workshop many years ago and they had a few professional piano tuners on their books who would tune new or recently repaired pianos.
Pianos don't tune so well, I seem to remember them tuning in thirds and fifths and counting the beats over set times.
A good friend of mine was one of Europe's main Baroque piano restorers before he retired. He would tune gut strung keyboards before recitals and they would go everso slightly out of 'tune' with the ambient temperature changes of the audience!
Yoiks!
And then there's the whole thing about meantone, equal temperament, standard and concert pitch which makes my head burn.....
Pass me a Snark, I'm having a nose bleed.
Lol.
And then there's the history of tuning and pitch https://www.piano-tuners.org/history/pitch.html
I posted the Taylor vid as a point to prove you must trust your ears when tuning. He does come across as a 'Layman' when describing the science. Great players are never great luthiers and great luthiers are never great players.
Did you notice he does a slight side-to-side vibrato when checking his fretted note to harmonic note?
It reminds me of a story,
Guitar collectors always check local papers free ads for possible gems. One ad read; Old guitar for sale, one string broken but recently tuned.
Working for a charity retailer to set up guitars they had a consignment of steel strung flat tops that had the bridges glued 5mm out of place. Oh dear.
Tuning on the fifth and fourth fret to open string is a really good method if you stay around the first 8 frets in your meanderings. Also tuning using fifth and seventh fret harmonics is ultra quick for the rehearsal room too.
Tuning in octaves and then using fifth chords is my trusted method.
One last thing about placing the bridge on archtops. I find that measuring from edge of nut to centre of 12th fret and then using this measured length to measure from centre of 12th fret to edge of bridge for the top E string and then adding 2mm or 1/8" for the bottom E gets you very close to where you need to be.
Also individual saddles on metal bridges always follow a pattern you can quickly sight in before checking with a tuner.
YMMV (Yummy)Last edited by jazzbow; 02-03-2016 at 05:30 AM.
-
That's not a Peerless guitar, mate. That is a Mike Vanden Martin Taylor Artistry, starting from GBP6950.00 ~ USD10 000.00. Originally Posted by Bezoeker
Anybody wants to have a go at James Taylor?
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-04-2016 at 07:53 AM.
-
Yes, provided the action is low. If a higher action is set, the bridge will need to be moved a tad closer to the tailpiece to compensate for the stretching of the strings when fretting. Originally Posted by jazzbow
BTW, I have wondered how the bridge on Freddie Greens guitars could be placed at the middle of the F-holes. That goes for both the Gretsch and the two Strombergs. Given his monstrously high string action (about ½" at the 12th fret), I would have expected it to be placed somewhat south of there out of necessity. Just think how sharp a note will go when bending a string ½" (more than a semitone?).
I won't include pictures of Greens guitars showing this because that might violate the copyright they are clearly marked with, but they can be checked out here: Photos of Guitars Owned by Freddie Green
-
Indeed, sorry for my sloppy mistake. I do love the Peerless MT guitars though. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
-
Sure. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
While ("Whilst" for Britons) one could use different words, and even explain the mysteries of the B string, what he says all adds up in my view.
His offsets look just about perfect for a strong style and use of a capo on a traditional flat top.
If MT and JT somehow went completely nuts and asked me to edit their scripts, I would have suggested that they mention more about their personal style and how it affects tuning. This could help players to understand why their particular offsets are different yet work.
BZ
-
That there James Taylor has a big tuner, I have tuner envy! Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Mind you it's not the size of your tuner but how you tune with it.
-
Indeed, and I do not mean to crap on the idea of posting the vid. Great point to trust the ears and not blindly follow the tuner. Originally Posted by jazzbow
I just wish MT had not name-dropped terms very very inaccurately.
And what an opportunity he had to note his use of vibrato. Great observation in my opinion: Play the note as you will in actual performance, then offset as needed to make that sound right to you as the player.
I mean players are delivering a performance, not a set of specifications. So what works for a player to deliver what he means to deliver is what matters. I wish MT would just say that vs. the questionable inclusion of mis-applied terms.
-
Not a lot of comments on bridge positioning. I wonder if that means most people let their luthier take care of it.
It was interesting last guy I saw used a Petersen Clip on tuner. Said he was pleased with it. He also said it worked better than a lot of the other clip on in noisy rooms. I almost find that too good to be true. I find I always have to use a plug in tuner in a noisy room.
-
A comment: Originally Posted by DanielleOM
Do not positon for the E strings necessarily. It is fashion and tradition, but so were codpieces at some point.
Start by positioning for the B and A, then see if you can live with the possibly slightly sharp low E and slightly flat High E and G.
Then consider dropping the low E tuning slightly if needed.
-
I must have 6 or more clip-ons here. The Petersen is by far the most accurate, and best in ambient noise. Originally Posted by DanielleOM
Others may have different experiences.
-
DOM,
Petersen do a phone app tuner which I still use occasionally on my old iphone 4s. More often than not I use the measuring method then my ears.
Most valuable tip for positioning bridges on archtops is to drop tune strings starting with bottom E to low D and other strings respectively. Lower string tension means easier bridge movement and less chance of scratching the finish.
Then position the bridge as I posted on #15, then use a tuner or your ears to bring everything up to standard tuning while setting the intonation as I posted on #3.
Ted Greene would apply slight neck wiggles on his Telecaster to make some of his complex chord voicing sound more 'in tune'.
Intonation on Teles are frustrating too.
Reply With Quote
Recommandations for Hollowbodies for $600 and under?
Today, 05:20 AM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos