Tried another Carvin Holdsworth

[ghoststrat]

...

Man, those guitars are so beautiful..

[neatomic]

And > $4000!

there's always the Steinberger Synapse SS-2F
has wood body, which i actually prefer..for around 750$



cheers

[fep]

they could solve the problem by having a little plug-in slot where you could optionally insert a counterweight if it bothered you.

I like that idea, the player could adjust to suit there preference. The Soloway I had was really light and was built with a counter weight to balance the guitar. It was screwed onto the block under the bridge.

[Robertkoa]

Well ...another way to eliminate Neck Heavy would be to do a 21 fret Version and slightly elongate the back end of the Guitar so it balances.

' But that would improve the Neck Tone to warm it up and fatten it up'.

Yeah, probably would- a problem I would like to have....

Kiesel are great Technically ( fretwork, joinery ) but are following their Market Trends and most Guitarists apparently want 24 frets even at the expense of Tone..

They get a lot of warmth and Resonance from this Design... ( H and HF) but it could be amazing with better neck PU placement..

The Marchione Semi Hollow is great 25.5" semi but very expensive.

Kiesel also has a Set Thru Design where the neck stops near the Treble PU - like an ultra long tenon Set Neck in 25.5 " - but 24 frets only.

And a nice Semi Hollow 25" scale about 2.6 " thick Carved Semi Hollow but would not do a 22 Fret Version...so a 2.6" thick at Center Carved SemiHollow BUT only 24 Frets....

IF the demand was there they probably will do a 22 fret something...but they are leaninh away from that now....

It seems that the Guitars you can actually hear the Body Resonance often have ONLY a block under the Bridge not a 335 type board all the way across...

Edit- although on a Jazz Video of Carvin SH 550 Carved Semi Kiesel - you can hear the Acoustic Quality IMO but it is sort of bright and wide open- requiring roll off of Treble.
IF there was a Top Wood that mellows it out- it could work..but not sure- kind of asking a lot from a piece of wood.

In Kiesel Carvin- the 'Ticket to Archtop Killer at $2000
is probably a Design using the nearly Hollow Construction of the Holdsworth but a New Design but really not their Market.

Years ago I had a 24 Fret BC Rich that did warm Vintage Electric Tones ( Santana Carlton etc and tons of pretty cleans - not Archtop though ) but I think it's ' Risky ' to use 24 Frets on a Guitar intended for warm neck Tones...

Those of you who have A Holdsworth or a Holdsworth Fatboy - does it seem that it would be quite similar to the Marchione above with 21 or 22 Fret Neck Placement and a slightly longer Body to balance the darn thing...?

It would have to be a new Design utilizing the Holdsworth Semi Construction ..but if Kiesel knew there were dozens interested in a Modern Guitar with warmer fatter Archtop/ Modern Tones at $1500 to $2000 they just might.

[Robertkoa]

I ordered an HF2 several years ago and loved so many things about it. The deal breakers for me were the fact that it wa neck-heavy (very difficult to deal with), and that the neck pickup was pushed out of the sweet spot (for me) due to the 24 fret neck. My core tone is 'clean' and I like to layer synth to thicken it up, which was something the HF2 was almost perfect for. I have played hollow and semi-hollow guitar most of the time I've been a musician, and prefer it, so the HF2 would've been perfect had it not been for these couple of issues. I ended up trying an El Ray for a while after selling my Carvin, but the neck-heavy problem was just as bad.

I wish Carvin would make a 22-fret neck. I could probably deal with the weight issue. I taped diving weights to my strap when I was playing the El Ray, and it almost worked. I'd *make* it work with a 22-fret Hf2.

Good luck with it, man..

PS - great books, by the way. I pull things out to shed every few months.

I am trying to get Kiesel to custom build
22 Fret Versions of this or a similar design with a larger Body to offset the Neck Heaviness and produce deeper tones similar to the Marchione 25.5" Semi- which is from Videos the Ultimate Semi..( for me especially with switches , but very expensive ..probably worth it though ).

Do you think it is possible to elimate the balance problem by using a heavy body - Walnut / Mahogany/ Koa and a very light neck ? ( 5 piece Alder or lightweight Limba etc.).
Also how bad is the HF2 Handicapped by the 24 Fret Neck PU location( always bad IMO for Tone )...in your opinion ?

Ironically ..most Jazzers don't care about the Treble PU and Holdsworth apparently did not use the Neck PU..

Here you get a very deep bottom end but clear due to 25.5" scale...some of the Benson snap but more sustain and better tone on the lower strings...more singing Tonality even with low gain ( or unity gain )
like the Ultimate Archtop Strat esssentially...

On Demos I hear a little similarity but the Holdsworth does not seem to get deep low end Resonance.

The same Construction Technique as The HF2 with a larger body and 21 or 22 Fret Neck by Kiesel would probably be perfect...for Jazz ,Fusion ..and Studio work...but not sure Kiesel is in that Market...

[Jim Soloway]

Well ...another way to eliminate Neck Heavy would be to do a 21 fret Version and slightly elongate the back end of the Guitar so it balances.

I've had an idea for a few years that I think could solve most neck heavy problems without adding any significant weight or altering the design of the guitar. Very simply, change the point at which the strap attaches to the to of the body of the guitar. That, in essence, would change the focal point of the lever. If someone came out with an adjustable extender that attached to the strap button on the body with a second strap button at the end of the extender, then the point at which the strap could attach to the body could be moved forward as far as was necessary to make the guitar balance. For Telecaster fans, it would allow a Tele to balance like a Strat.

[Robertkoa]

I've had an idea for a few years that I think could solve most neck heavy problems without adding any significant weight or altering the design of the guitar. Very simply, change the point at which the strap attaches to the to of the body of the guitar. That, in essence, would change the focal point of the lever. If someone came out with an adjustable extender that attached to the strap button on the body with a second strap button at the end of the extender, then the point at which the strap could attach to the body could be moved forward as far as was necessary to make the guitar balance. For Telecaster fans, it would allow a Tele to balance like a Strat.

Good workaround ..
If I had a Holdsworth I would try that.

Kiesel is an innovative Company with some of the best Fretwork - ( and playability ) anywhere..

Right now they have a new 25" Scale Carved Semi Hollow that is 2.6 Inches thick and tapers at edges - but ONLY 24 frets.

And they have a new 25.5" Scale ( !) Ultra Long Tenon Set Neck ( called a set through )- where neck stops short of the Bridge to force ( theoretically ) the Body to vibrate as one piece rather than a full neck through.
Available ( so far ) as a 24 Fret ONLY..

And the Holdsworth- unique Construction gives some nice Resonance but again 24 Frets Only.

I don't care much about Construction/ Luthery but if I am going to spend $2000 I want some Resonant fat tones from Neck ..and switches for versatility..

[Jim Soloway]

Good workaround ..
If I had a Holdsworth I would try that.

Kiesel is an innovative Company with some of the best Fretwork - ( and playability ) anywhere..

Right now they have a new 25" Scale Carved Semi Hollow that is 2.6 Inches thick and tapers at edges - but ONLY 24 frets.

And they have a new 25.5" Scale ( !) Ultra Long Tenon Set Neck ( called a set through )- where neck stops short of the Bridge to force ( theoretically ) the Body to vibrate as one piece rather than a full neck through.
Available ( so far ) as a 24 Fret ONLY..

And the Holdsworth- unique Construction gives some nice Resonance but again 24 Frets Only.

I don't care much about Construction/ Luthery but if I am going to spend $2000 I want some Resonant fat tones from Neck ..and switches for versatility..

I've been tempted by the Holdsworth since day 1 and especially since they came out with the gig bag for it. I never understood having a guitar that size in a standard case but the gig bag might make it work as a travel guitar.

[David B]

I've had an idea for a few years that I think could solve most neck heavy problems without adding any significant weight or altering the design of the guitar. Very simply, change the point at which the strap attaches to the to of the body of the guitar. That, in essence, would change the focal point of the lever. If someone came out with an adjustable extender that attached to the strap button on the body with a second strap button at the end of the extender, then the point at which the strap could attach to the body could be moved forward as far as was necessary to make the guitar balance. For Telecaster fans, it would allow a Tele to balance like a Strat.

I saw David Fiuczynski a couple of years ago with something added to his double-neck guitar for a similar purpose.

[jads57]

As stated eariler in this thread 24 frets vs. 22 was the deal breaker for why I ended up selling both Carvin Holdsworths (Fatboy and regular w/ headstocks) I liked the thinner model overall and probably kept it if it had a pickup under the 22nd fret harmonic position. Which definitely gives a fuller Jazz Tone!

[Robertkoa]

As stated eariler in this thread 24 frets vs. 22 was the deal breaker for why I ended up selling both Carvin Holdsworths (Fatboy and regular w/ headstocks) I liked the thinner model overall and probably kept it if it had a pickup under the 22nd fret harmonic position. Which definitely gives a fuller Jazz Tone!

Was the sound unplugged far fuller than a *335 especially on the bottom end ?

' Why ask that crazy question Robert ?'

Because IF it's deeper unplugged - that would indicate that moving the pickup to near 21st ( safer )
or 22nd Fret would be enough ...
IF it was still kinda thin and trebly even unplugged with 11s or higher-probably needs a bigger body..
To go deep.

Also- why did you like the H more than the HF2 thicker body ?
Tone or ergonomics?

Still neither one passed the Audition..for you I mean .

I just chatted with a Guy on Kiesel Forum..he has a
Holdsworth which is not Neck Heavy- because it weighs 8 pounds...so THAT answers one question..

Also most people use these to sound like Holdsworth which is not my use ..

*I think 335's are cool but I can barely if at all hear the Semi Hollowness...I DO hear it on the ES 137 when I play one in Neck Position..I used to own a 347 and that sounded really cool..especially single coil mode..but not Hollow either nor super deep.


It's amazing how deep that Marchione is for such a thin body..

[Robertkoa]

I ordered an HF2 several years ago and loved so many things about it. The deal breakers for me were the fact that it wa neck-heavy (very difficult to deal with), and that the neck pickup was pushed out of the sweet spot (for me) due to the 24 fret neck. My core tone is 'clean' and I like to layer synth to thicken it up, which was something the HF2 was almost perfect for. I have played hollow and semi-hollow guitar most of the time I've been a musician, and prefer it, so the HF2 would've been perfect had it not been for these couple of issues. I ended up trying an El Ray for a while after selling my Carvin, but the neck-heavy problem was just as bad.

I wish Carvin would make a 22-fret neck. I could probably deal with the weight issue. I taped diving weights to my strap when I was playing the El Ray, and it almost worked. I'd *make* it work with a 22-fret Hf2.

Good luck with it, man..

PS - great books, by the way. I pull things out to shed every few months.

I just today suggested to Kiesel a Model that uses the HF2 type construction but a larger Body for more bottom end and 22 Fret Neck- and offered to pay for one of the Prototypes...solve the top heavy AND the neck dive and more character and closer to the Greatest 25.5" scale Guitar - the Marchione-they were not interested ( even sent them clips). I told them if it's even close..they would sell dozens of them instantly.

I talked to a Dealer who has sold more than 10 or 15 Marchiones Semi Hollows @ $15,000 ( but 5 sets of free strings so really only $14,965.).
From clips I would pay $ 5,000.or $ 6000. for one which is nuts - but I would.


THEN I tried to order at a Premium a HF2 Model but 21 Fret so Neck PU moved even further for some fatness warmth and balance..I thought they would quote an extra $ 300 $500 - but they said too much engineering to do it.



This is the Problem with not being Famous..I don't recommend it .

Although..except for the Holdsworth - none of their Signature Models differ from their regular lines.

I am wondering if the SH 550 ( which is 25" scale ) could be dampened in brightness by using a Walnut Top or something to kill the high end a bit and make it sound warmer...no not the same IMO as turning down the tone knob .

Carvin= better Sustain but too bright but has Acoustic Quality but not much complexity..Maple Top can't help...

Since it's an actual Top Wood - maybe a dark sounding wood (I read that Walnut is) could help if dramatic enough.

EDIT -I love the Carvin Fretwork which is on my phatt Superstrat by Carvin- but no longer trying to reinvent the Wheel.

Lots of Options to check out with other Builders .

[Friedrich]

I have a Kiesel HF2 with tremolo system and can’t be happier with it. Where can you design your own guitar for that price ?

The guitar is neck heavier than the LP customs or PRS`s I’ve owned. However, I have adjusted very quickly and there is no problem. I have a thick padded strap attached at the lower button and hold the guitar high up, fusion style.

There are lots of bad reviews on the internet. Its up to the individual to alter the guitar to whatever sound and style is preferred. Obviously buying a Holdsworth model suggest towards fusion direction.

I changed the stock pickups to Lollar Imperials and now I have a monster. The Kiesel tuners are Ultra-fine 19:1 Gear Ratio, couldn’t find anything better at competitors. Changed the plastic knobs to metal dome knobs. IMO they look better and are easier to adjust with the pinky finger.

Best sounding and playing guitar I have ever owned. Some reviewers are not happy with the retail price. Out of my experience selling guitars, you pretty much have to sell it for 1/2 to 2/3 of the price what you paid for new. So, that in mind and the Kiesel is right up the alley.

[jads57]

I really like the above version but it being 24 frets,it displaces the neck pickup a bit further back. And that changes the tone to a more midd character vs.the fatter tone of a neck pickup.
But Souless is not a word I ever thought of when I owned one. Carvin makes really playable quality guitars ,but the finish does feel a bit poly and thicker than needed.

[Friedrich]

I use 12 gauge Thomastic Infeld, swing, flat wounds. They feel much softer than 12 and are easy to bend and are super fast. In combination with the Lollar pups, the neck position presses air out of the amp. Punchy and fat.I have never experienced a better sound in 30+ years of playing and experimenting. Mahogany body with a maple top and a black limba neck and headstock, and ebony fretboard.

[geogio]

I've had a HF2 for a decade or so which was an even trade for a well used 50's three-neck Fender steel requiring a seriously expensive overall... the value for that particular steel as is, was about $500 US at a 2010 CPI calculation.

The HF2 is a lovely guitar but it took some getting used to. First off the ¼ inch input jack failed... and when I opened it up and looked at the factory integrated circuit board package I was absolutely shocked! It was total garbage. So I gutted the cavity put in CTS pots, switchcrafter jack and 3way switch, the correct caps, and kept the original pickups. I'm very pleased with the upgrade.

My next "upgrade" was shifting to .008 gauge nickel strings.

Neck dive? I play seated on a 21" Queen Anne dining room chair with an ergonomically correct high density foam pad covered with a sheep skin... sounds like overkill but it took a long time to get comfortable after my tried and true Eames chair went missing from a long distance relocation involving a reputable transfer company. I do use a strap as well, however the OEM strap buttons while esthetically pleasing are a bit large and difficult to wrestle a strap over the "knobs." I use suede with no buckles or other trinkets to avoid marring the finish. It has quilted top that some people find attractive but as it was a even trade... I would have preferred flamed or perhaps British Racing Green.

Neck width might bother some but my musical upbringing was centered around Bossa Nova played on classical guitars, so fretboard width, radius & string spacing was definitely a positive.

[jads57]

So I’ve come around again and started playing both Carvin Fatboy and the Headless HH2 models.
For me it was so much the balance issues as much as the 24 frets issue.

Although not perfect,one solution was to replace the neck pickup,with a single coil Humbucker i.e. Dimarzio Strat Tone Zone.
This way the strings only read the one coil closest to the neck. And the pickup is seriously wound hotter or darker.
Again not perfect, but I can get a decent Jazz Clean Tone along with setting my amp with a bit more bass.