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I'd say just do your thing with whatever you dig playing. I you find your sound is missing something that you'd like to have and it's not technique/knowledge-related...think about trying something else. Meanwhile, pick up everything you can get your hands on. First, it's fun. Second, you learn a lot about what different guitars taste like. Third, different guitars can make you play differently...it's true for me anyway...and that's a good thing.
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07-08-2012 05:18 PM
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Jazz is a how, not a what.
Play what feels and sounds good.
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Feel / playability ultimately trumps all else. The "feel factor" includes everything in the player-guitar interface: Body shape and weight, neck geometry, setup, strings, and plectrum.
Once you have these things down, it's time to focus on and refine tonal factors - but arguably not before. More than one great player has found bliss with an inexpensive solidbody. Ignore all advice that steers you away if it's working for you on the playability front.
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Looks like you have some pretty good advice here from a lot of very knowledgeable players and builders. I also go along with the consensus that feel is extremely important. Everything we do in this world has to do with pain and pleasure so to speak as paraphrased from Tony Robbins. If it doesn't feel good, you'll avoid it. If it feels good, you'll keep coming back to it. I definitely would try other instruments (for the future that is.) to see if something else feels better or gives you that certain vibe more so than what you have. If it does, you can save up for it if it's within financial possibility. If it doesn't feel better no matter the price, you stick with what you have. That way, your best choice is an informed choice. In other words, don't feel like you have to have a particular instrument based on others' opinions. If you feel an Epi does the trick, then by all means, stick with it. If you feel that even an old Masonite Sears Silvertone does it for you, that's what you stick with. Hope this helps.
Last edited by hot ford coupe; 07-09-2012 at 08:56 AM.
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A few years ago I went to see Dave Cliff (amazing Bop Guitarist)
and he wasn't playing his usual old Gibson 175
It was a cheap Korean L5 type copy a Tanglewood
I talked to him after the Gig and he said he'd bought it as a present
for his son to learn on but his son didn't need it now and
it worked fine (for Dave) ,
So he was leaving the Gibson at home now !
he and it certainly sounded fantastic that night ......
This conversation changed my mind about gear completely
I started playing a cheap Korean Ibanez AF120
Jim Mullen (awesome) uses a $600 Aria etc
Whatever guitar you use you'll have to tweak it a fair bit to
suit your own requirements anyway , set-up ,
eliminate the rough edges buzzes here and there etc
You should understand how a guitar works so you can
keep it running smoothly , its a machine after all.
The gear should be so sorted ideally as to dissapear physically , emotionally and GAS wise so you can just get into the music properly.
So I say play the Les Paul if you want
Play good , make some great music
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One big advantage of planks/slabs--I'm getting my 52 RI Tele artistically painted by a professional graphic illustrator friend of mine. (I love what Nels Cline had someone do to his planks and slabs). I gave him complete carte blanche to do whatever he wanted, artistically, with two provisos: (1) don't mess with the fingerboard; (2) no obviously misogynistic/embarrassing art.
I would never think about doing something like that to my arch tops.
I'm very excited to see what he comes up with. Oh, my Tele is setup to play jazz and only jazz: (1) TI-14-55 rounds; (2) Charlie Christian neck pup; (3) ashtray covering bridge pup; (4) selector permanently set to neck setting.
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It's hard for a guitar to excel at all genres for several reasons to me. One being the sound I like for jazz and rock are not the same; jazz to me needs heavy strings and that makes bends hard; etc...
Originally Posted by bartvarvara
I had two gigs recently where I had to play jazz / bossa / pop music. I brought my archtop Godin Kingpin and set up it to my jazz sound because that's my main concern. In bossa tunes I just added some treble on my eq pedal or tone pot; on rock tones I left thing as they were and got a nice clean sound but not exactly a great rock tone. So you have to compromise... Unless it's a really important gig and you will take several guitars.
I know some guys who do it all usually with a tele or a 335. But they don't usually have that fat jazz tone... even amp / eq settings usually don't tend to work well for both genres. So you have to choose: I choose a good jazz tone and a decent rock ine, Some guys do the opposite.
If you have money try an archtop with heavy strings and buy it if you like it. Then you have a guitar for each case. If you don't maybe some 011s will help a little on the jazz side. But if your own use of the word "mediocre" is accurate you should be worrying with other stuff to tell you the truth.
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im not a great player, especially jazz
i have been around enough howevr to know never to judge a book by the cover or a player by what he likes or has for equipment
take me for example...
i own a lot of guitars, especially les pauls
to see my stuff, youd think i was a pro.....not close
but, i love my stuff and i love to play
the longer i play, the more i gig,
i find that the instrument is second to the player and the notes/chords...and of course being in tune and in the pocket
ohter than that, tone is wonderful, but like a human voice, almost eveything has something to offer and works considerably well, regardless of pedigree
yes i use my archtop now-it took me years to decide to get one
i hav eno problem with playing jazz on LPs or teles, or even...a strat, or a flat top-i prefer my archtop, but occasionally use and LP artist as well, and with the latter i never have feedback issues obviously
ill bet your Epi is excellent, the 57 classics are great pup imho especially for jazz and
so long as you find it to be so, love it and use it
as for Jack Pearson, i first saw him at Gibson when i was there touring the CS-hes an amazing super versatile player-i have a couple of his CDs, his wife is a superb bassist
too
Jack is a jack of all-and, he does use a wide range of guitars
when i was at berklee,
i used my LP custom-tone rolled back, finger style, i think fenders are great with an LP -i love them clean- i tend to roll back the bass on the amp a great deal, and sometimes use the #2 input, as it helps cut the treble a bit as well
the vast majority of players there at the time i was, were using LPs and sometimes 335's-i never listened to anyone and say to myself-"why that guitar just isnt working for that song"
personally the only thing i find about LPs are they are the "muscle car" of electrics-sometimes too much bass and too much sustain-heavy (11-12)flats help with this imho
to your point, about not dong it all, they dont especially work well with surf music, unless you use an outboard reverb tank.....LOLLast edited by stevedenver; 07-09-2012 at 10:58 AM.
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Well, I look at the numerous guitars hanging from my wall and based on what I've learned from Hex's posts:
My vintage ES-175 sucks because it's dead and thin sounding ("not woody at all"). My vintage ES-335 is crap for jazz. My carved L-5s (plural) and Super 400 are only good for Freddie Green style bashing. My Tele, Strat, and other solidbodies are inappropriate for jazz. The Warmoths I built are obviously cheap and would embarrass me if I showed up in public with them.
I only have 25 guitars and they all suck. I guess I'm totally hosed. No wonder I still have G.A.S.!
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Back when I went to college (late 70's) I used a Les Paul Recording model for the first two years. It was the only guitar I owned.
Worked fine for every ensemble I was in plus jury's etc. I think I used 11's with a wound G. Nobody complained, students or professors.
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I get your humorous drift. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I have found that the Tele with a Charlie Christian pickup played through a Twin, neck pickup only, played with fingers only, delivers an immaculate tone for jazz, wonderfully pristine and clear, not a bit of twang left in it. WIth a pick, I really have to watch the volume.
I don't know what I did wrong--my Tele didn't suck. I'll try to not do so good next time. 
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Originally Posted by JohnW400
i agree and i have one-with Ti 11 flats!
possibly the most versatile guitar ever made
the only thing they really dont sound like is a humbucker equipped les paul, but come close enough through a high gain amp on the bridge
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Alright.
That's a bit better. I was, to dabble in your own King's English, just "taking the piss out of you" a bit.
I just don't share the same general feeling that electric guitars (such as most of those we're discussing) are so narrow in their application, be they solid, semi, or hollow. Of course they are different, but to a player with a personal voice with any character, the differences are easily transcended by technique.
If you take iconic Gibsons with a HB x HB configuration, you've got - in order of sustain - the Les Paul, ES-335, ES-175, and L-5CES. All of these can sound great for jazz, including fast paced bop, slow/expressive chord melody, and the whole range in between. It's all in the hand of the player. It's been proven so many times over the past 60 years or so that it's hardly worth discussing. A solid body is great for chord melody in the right hands.
Anyway, my point is just that I think I've had an opposite journey of discovery to yours. In about 36 years of playing and 100 guitars, I have definite preferences BUT I am also VERY open-minded and non-judgmental about gear choices with respect to jazz. My ear tells me what I like, not my eye.
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Originally Posted by stevedenver
Yes, they don't do the humbucker thing well. I did use it in a rock band back in the early 90's and was able to coax some nice high gain from it.
I eventually sold it to finance an L5 CES. I sold it to, of all people, Lou Pallo. He was Les' 2nd guitarist for a long long time.
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I know a great young player in Houston, Sung Jo, who uses a Les Paul for jazz. He gets a great sound out of it too, playing through a Fender tube amp (Blues Jr. I think). Still, I couldn't believe how jazzy it sounded. Anyways, he said he needed the brightness for his sound. He plays mostly with a pick. Originally Posted by bartvarvara
I've always liked how Les Paul type guitars feel, but I just can't get them to work for me. The heart of the guitar has got to be in the right place, you know?
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A truly salient point is getting lost in the shuffle here. Ironically, it was the very first response.
This is a great reason to pick up a jazz box for playing jazz. The feel is so different that it forces you to play differently. It's a great way to drop old habits and expand your playing. You don't need a high end archtop, just something decent that feels good to play. I'm kind of a jazz novice myself. I've learned a lot since I bought a used Ibanez AK-95 for $250, partly because my old stand-by licks just don't work on that guitar. Originally Posted by Peter C
With a good amp, you can get a serviceable tone out of just about any guitar. Great tone? Professional tone? I don't know. There's always something better out there for a price, right? For the OP's situation, it shouldn't matter. Get something that feels good and sounds good, and work on your playing.
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A guy who played jazz on a Les Paul and got some pretty good sounds out of it—IMHO—was Les Paul.
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Yes and with a small Tech 21 amp I think. Originally Posted by seabee
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i am somewhat a fan and follower of the late LP, but
i have never thought of him as a jazz player, although he did some, like with nat cole
he was, imho, more a pop player-
his phrasing was sometimes great, sometimes, imho, overly frilly and trilly, showmanship-he did have chops no end
his bing crosby solo on its been a long long time was one of his best,and that wasnt on any LP guitar-likely an Epi
his mid 50's and later tone was unique, and the LP recording guitars are THAT tone-get the guitar and you get the tone!
it was sorta early electronica imho, trying and getting a unique sound, not only from the super clean hi fi sound , but also the lo z pups for infinite overdubbing
i didnt really like les's tone,-but i think he was trying NOT to have old school sounds,
but he surely did some cool stuff
BTW hex thanks-its long distance from a reputable dealer-but i appreciate your thoughtsLast edited by stevedenver; 07-09-2012 at 06:08 PM.
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IMO this assessment of Les Paul as being less of a "jazz player" and more of a "pop player" is semantics. Jazz was "popular" at the time. Originally Posted by stevedenver
Maybe. Bing's version of "It's Been A Long Time" came out in 1945. Les Paul made several prototypes of his solid-body guitar, dubbed "The Log" around that time and even approached Gibson to see if they'd be interested in making one around that time. Originally Posted by stevedenver
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This thread inspired me to plug in my Tele after playing strictly archtops for a period of weeks. The Tele sounds great for jazz, even (especially?) through my decidedly non-solidbody approved Clarus/Redstone rig.
It's really a non-topic requiring no argument. But just as men and women are doomed to wage the same unwinnable gender difference battles until time itself comes to and end, so shall we debate the appropriateness of solidbody guitars for jazz.
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Telecasters sound especially great when you use your fingers. Warms the timbre right up. Using a dark amp like the Roland Cube helps, too.
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I agree with Jim Soloway. Play the guitar that feels right to you, and try to sound like yourself. I play Fender style guitars, and like single coils. If I could afford one of Jim's guitars, I would get one with the his DiMarzio Area T and Virtual Solo pup combo. To me, that pup setup sounds great on his guitars.
Last edited by jkurtz7; 07-10-2012 at 10:36 PM.
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I love this.The trick is to not care if it sounds the same and instead just open your ears to a wider tonal pallet
With arthritis and medical issues I am in the last few years of my playing carreer. I have reached the point that Jim is making. As one who just sold his only archtop (Heritage 575 Custom) I am about to embark on my first sans hollow-body period in many years.
I have gigged and recorded with Strats, Teles, Carvin Holdsworth, PRS Hollowbody, Heritage amd Ibanez semi's and hollows as well as a superb Soloway Gosling.
The best stereotypical "jazz tone" was from the fully hollow guitars, but the most inspiring to me, the tones that drew me out and let me play my best were from solid body and semi-hollowbody guitars.
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The combination of Gibson, Authentic Hendrix and the Strat comes on the heels of a March 2009 United States Trademark Trial and Appeal Board decision that denied Fender a trademark to the generic Tele, Strat and P-Bass body styles (looked like the man stiffed the underdog again!). The new Authentic Hendrix guitars feature a slightly sharper headstock.
Wah! Gibson tried to out Fender Fender...
Top picture st**t was supposed to be a Gibson Hendrix tribute but I believe they were pulled due to some legal issue (something to do with truss rod access)
Nice Greco Hex, if the neck breaks you can always route out a neck pocket for a proper Fender neck.....
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