Using a Gibson Les Paul for Jazz

[nick1994]

that is one cool clip of benson, that's the oldest footage I've seen of him so far

[DRS]

I have a nice Les Paul
2010 Traditional Desertburst with a Seth Lover in the neck and Biltoft VV in the bridge.
It has no problem getting good clean jazz tone if I go into the right amp. However, the guitar has enough power to push small tube amps into overdrive at low volumes. So amp choice is vital especially if you want clean and loud. It won't get the crystal clear sound that Martin Taylor has now, but it can get many good tones.

The problem I have is the guitar is heavy (8lbs11oz, 3.95kg) and the weight is in the lower bout so it wants to flip backwards of your leg if you play it on your right knee and it's awkward classical style. It is very comfy standing but I don't play more difficult music standing. So when I play it seated, you have to have a strap holding it where you want it. Lots of people play this way anyway, so maybe it's not a big deal.

As for the OP, want a ES335 for under $1K? Get an Ibanez AS153 or a new Artstar. I would never shell out $3K+ for one of the production Gibson ES335s.

[kenhan]

OP here. Thanks for all the posts. I'm learning a lot. I haven't quite decided which route to go. At this point I'm probably leaning towards either a Comins GCS or a 2014 Les Paul Studio Pro. My interest in jazz is fairly new, and my only electric guitar being a PRS SE EG (a strat copy with 3 single coils), I'm looking for something that will give me jazz sound but also flexible enough to cover other genres.

For Comins GCS owners, what does it sound like with an overdriven amp?

[strumcat]

Something I learned with my Gibson LPJ: to get rid of the muddy bass sound, especially on the bridge pickup, lower the pickups substantially. The spec is at least 1/8" away from the strings when the strings are pressed down at the highest fret. I backed my 490R all the way down flush with the trim and it sounds very much cleaner, clearer and crisper, and still has plenty of output across all the strings. The mud is gone.

[stevedenver]

If we're dissecting tones, it must be noted that his axe had single-coils.

not really
they are low impedence humbuckersbut they are as bright as any single coil, or can be.

They are unique to the LP recording, Personal, Professional, Signature and a few early L5s'.

While extremely transparent and uncolored, imho, they offer huge versatility in tone, but
not a particularly good jazz tone,imho. That is , if you like the woody , hollow, fuller sound.
They do SOME things remarkably well and can sound like an acoustic guitar when tweaked, but, imho, not like an archtop, mostly due to the treble. Hard to articulate. I think one only need listen to Les when he using these, such as on Chester and Lester, Guitar Giants, or Now, and one can hear what the recoding guitar sounds like. I love mine, and have for over ten years, and I love its versatility, but since getting an acoustic archtop with a floater, it has become more apparent what it doesn't sound like.

I happen to play a LP recording guitar a lot, and have for over a decade, using the in line tranny.

unique among all LPs, and not well received by most who hear them (at first)

An LP which I do love for jazz is the LP Artist with its active electronics.

[silverfoxx]

Younger players may not realise forget that the Les Paul was originally regarded as a Jazz Guitar
personally I see nothing wrong with that at all, but as we all know one may sound different from
another. Luckily, I acquired one . an Ebony( Custom shop ) Custom model, about 7 years ago ,it
still plays like a dream.
I felt some irritability when a young guy who listened to me playing it in a shop, declared that" a
Les Paul should'nt sound like that" I tried to explain that not all of us play like Jimmy Page etc.,
and there are other styles of music , sadly this was lost on him. To be fair I also have archtops
and a .now discontinued Gibson Custom Pat Martino, which, due to the straight pull string/ neck
configuration stays in tune for a remarkable time.
This rather long winded response is just to say there a many types of guitar suitable for Jazz
just listen to our own Dave Cliff who used a Fender Bullit.



Kind regards

[stevedenver]

Ive struggled with thinking of Les as jazz. His album with Nat Cole at the Philharmonic is how I think of jazz, imho. His work has been country, big band with the Pennsylvanians and others, and imho, he has always been seeking cutting edge. This, imho, was pop music of the time.

His trio work was, somewhere between jazz, orchestral, and popular tunes. His work with Mary was pop for the time. He could do it all, and I have the greatest respect for him as a player, and as a tech wizard. His music, of which I have a fair amount, as I kept wanting to know his music rather than his reputation, has rarely touched me.

imho, Les sometimes displayed his incredible chops at the cost of musical taste, using his speed runs trills, and other embellishments that remind me of an overly zealous mandolin virtuoso. This is evident particularly in his duets with Chet Atkins.

Id like to know of an album(s) where Les play 'jazz'. Maybe the available catalog doesn't offer those anymore. He certainly made his mark with his solo on Its been a long long time.

The Nat Cole album being an exception. I'm sure there are others. He, importantly, played since the twenties-think "hold that tiger", and barn dance broadcasts, -it is simply , he had roots in another era entirely. For his time, until rock, he was indeed the 'new sound'. He was always a virtuoso showman.

[Vladan]

... I have the greatest respect for him ... as a tech wizard. ...

Les Paul at work ...

[Loobs]

this pretty much ends the argument

[snoskier63]

Les Paul's are very nice, but most things Gibson will be a little pricey. For something more affordable the Epiphone suggestion was good. I would also consider a used Yamaha SA2200. Perhaps better than that (IMHO) is the Guild Bluesbird and Guild Starfire IV. The Bluesbird (USA) is similar in design to the Les Paul, but because it is chambered is much lighter, and a bit more versatile (again, MHO). It can also be had in mint condition for about $900 - $1200.

Jazzy:

Bluesy:

The new Starfire IV (made in Korea) is 1K or less and is getting rave reviews. It is similar in style to the ES335, but tonally is much different. The new model is based on the 60's Starfire IV, so here is a clip of each.

New:

Vintage 60's USA (about 2K +/-):

and now two clips of the more modern USA Starfire IV (about $1200 used)

Jazzy:

Bluesy:

Best of luck with your search!

[xiyangshen]

That is a great clip of George Benson indeed.
So what would be your best bet as to getting that tone from a Les Paul other than actually BEING George Benson?
I'm guessing Heavy flats, neck pickup backed down away from the strings, volume rolled back, heavy pick, what amp?
I sound nothing like that, but if I could get close to that tone it'd make practicing a lot more fun.

[vinlander]

I love the sound of my Les Paul Standard for jazz using the neck pickup (490R), pretty much convincing Gibson dark tone, much better than what I could achieve with my Epi Regent and the different floaters I tried...can't wait to hear what the routed classic 57 will do to it...

[silverfoxx]

None of those. light gauge half-rounds will suffice ,no need to lower neck pup
a Good Quality Jazz Amp. Mambo,Henriksen.Evans etc/ a Fender if you can lift
it! just roll off the tone controls use your thumb or a small pick and you'll get
a nice fat jazz tone, give it a try.

[Peter C]

To get that tone in the early Benson clip, you would definitely need fat(-ish) flatwounds. Light gauge strings tend to slap back on the fretboard and he hits them hard. Maybe he was too young and lacking confidence to tune that darn string on the fly!


My LP-style guitar with 12 or 13 gauge flats offers some nice tones. Lowering the pickup height seems to let the acoustic nature of the instrument come through, sort of "solid mahogany" sounding Sustain gives way to punch.

[coolvinny]

To bring this thread back from the dead (it looked like a cool thread)....

Just a quick note to anyone that might care: the "Gibson Les Paul Standard 2008" is a very competent jazz guitar.

The "2008" designation model is chambered to the point of nearly being semi-hollow. This is not quite the same as the "weight-relieved" models that have strategically-placed holes drilled, and also not the same as the 2012 (I think) version that has a series of long, narrow sections routed out. The weight of these "chambered" 2008 models is very well balanced, without being neck-heavy. I would guess the one I focused on is about 7 to 7.5 lbs.

A bit of googling will yield some informative pics of the different types of chambering/weight-relieving.

Also worth noting: The neck pickup in the "2008 Standard" model is a Burstbucker however with lower output than the older PAFs. The bridge pickup makes up the difference and is apparently higher output. As a jazzer, I like a neck pickup that is lower output.

In addition, the neck carve is slightly assymetrical. Feels good.

Anyways, lots to like about the 2008 model, including locking Grover tuners and a locking input jack. I spent some time with one of these yesterday and today basically out of coincidence with my new jazzy tube amp nearby, and I was extremely pleased with the result. I also tried it with my Mambo ss amp and again I was very happy with the sound. Maybe that Les Paul guy was on to something after all...

Are these the dark horse of the solid-body jazz guitar world?

If you have any inkling of wanting a solid-ish body jazz guitar (with some semi-hollow flavour built-in), give one a try (specifically, the "2008 Standard" model) - you might be pleasantly surprised.

MSRP is of course ridiculous and I'd never pay even close to that, but these can be had for much much less.

[L4CESN]

I'm a fan of P90s and I like my '56 Goldtop Reissue a lot. I also think this Collings 290 (Les Paul Special) demo from Mitch Watkins sounds pretty great for jazz. I might even prefer it over the more jazz oriented Collings guitars he demos.

[Phil in London]

While my ears like that sound, my back doesn't like the weight of the instrument (4 kg, or approx.8,8 lb) and my ribs don't like the ergonomics of the guitar body.

I think that is one of the main issues. The LP looks stunning, but its form does not work for me, particularly when I sit and play without strap. Just twists my spine in a way I dont like. Also, particularly the humbucker version responds so much less to dynamics than say an L5. Its not an obvious choice for jazz, unless you play fusion or bluesy kind of stuff.

[scook]

If you hunt around, you can find used LP Studios in the $400-$800. I recently purchased one for $500.

If you could find one in this price range it shouldn't cost too much more to change the PUPs and Pots if you aren't satisfied with the sound. (Depending upon what your budget is).


As far as jazz tone, what are you looking for? If I remember correctly, Jeff Beck used an LP for his 70's albums, although I guess most of that would be considered more fusion than a traditional jazz sound.

There are some LP forums out there that can give you some good advice and info, just remember that most of them aren't looking for jazz tones.


steve

[coolvinny]

The hardest part is to get the top string not to sound like your use 08 strings. It sounds very thin very easy. I found no other way than to raise the string hight a bit and have the pick up high aswell. The worst thing bout solid guitars is when this top string issue is solved by turning down the tone knob.
/H

Since I don't bend strings, my simple solution is to use heavier high E and B strings. Right now I'm experimenting with a TI Swing 12 set with a 13/17 for the B/E. I adjusted the poles a bit too. Sounds pretty good now.

[Woody Sound]

Since I don't bend strings, my simple solution is to use heavier high E and B strings. Right now I'm experimenting with a TI Swing 12 set with a 13/17 for the B/E. I adjusted the poles a bit too. Sounds pretty good now.

Also, try replacing the TOM with an ebony (or rosewood) saddle. Amazing difference.

[coolvinny]

Also, try replacing the TOM with an ebony (or rosewood) saddle. Amazing difference.

That sounds interesting. Can you point me to a supply source?

[Woody Sound]

That sounds interesting. Can you point me to a supply source?

Any decent saddle will work just fine, just as they do on a wooden base. You just need to get one with the same post/hole width.

[eddy b.]

The best Les Paul for jazz is a Gibson es 137, a Les Paul dressed up as an ES 175 hehehehahhaeheheaha

[Greentone]

Ever heard Larry Coryell play "Autumn in New York" on an old, black Les Paul Custom? It sounds terrific. Of course, that's Coryell.

I agree with the assessment that nearly any Les Paul guitar will make a good jazz guitar. I used to use a mid-70s Custom that was great. Before that, I used an early-70s 50s reissue that had two P90s. Both guitars sounded great when playing jazz and were quite comfortable. The main issue was string selection--especially the P90 LP (non-tune-o-matic bridge). The guitars liked sets that began at .11 and went up. Lighter than that, and things didn't feel right for playing traditional jazz--at least, not to me.

[coolvinny]

So I just bought myself a 2008 Les Paul Standard (built in 2011) which is "chambered". It was on clearance from a local shop. Seems like there was some backlash in the Les Paul community about the chambering, and Gibson now achieves their weight-relieving in a different way.

I've put TI Swing 12's on it with a 13/17 on the top strings. I've also played around with the neck pickup height (at both ends) as well as the individual poles to get a tone that I'm happy with when playing through a tube amp (12" speaker). I don't think I'll be using this guitar with my Mambo 8 much, although it sounds quite decent with that too.

I'm getting a fantastic jazz sound out of it. It doesn't sound like a solid body guitar to my ears - it sounds like a semi and quite similar to something like a 335. I still prefer my archtop by a large margin if using my Mambo, but through my new tube amp (Sequel Ravine - 12" speaker and 50 watts) the margin is noticeably smaller.

It's funny...I've always wanted a good 'back up' jazzy guitar that ticks all the boxes and is familiar compared to an archtop but smaller/more durable/feedback resistant. I never thought of giving the Les Paul a chance. I had a Heritage H-150 many years ago but eventually sold it because it was so damn heavy.

So my vote for the "best" Les Paul model for jazz - as backed up by my hard-earned dollars - is the 2008 Standard. Some of the "rare" offerings mentioned in this thread (like the Wes Paul) look great but in terms of something actually accessible, I think the 2008 Standard is the winner.