Gretsch 6120JR vs Ibanez GB10

[Raystrack]

I've been playing flat tops fingerstyle for 50 years. I'm now wanting to get into jazz licks, modes etc. and of course MUST have a new guitar. As a small person I've decided to go for a small, quality guitar and want something that is versatile enough to do jazz, pop and folk/country style picking (heroes James Taylor, Paul Simon etc.) I've narrowed it down to a vintage Gretsch 6120JR or a new Ibanez GB10 which are about the same price. Must confess I don't like orange guitars but those Filtertrons are pretty nice. Any thoughts?

[MaxTwang]

Those are pretty different guitars, have you had a chance to play both? Both are really good at what they do.

The spruce top and floating pickups on the GB10 will sound different than the laminate top and mounted Filtertrons on the 6120JR, the Bigsby affects tone too. That said, you respond to the Filtertrons which says something (I really like Gretsch orange).

Which jazz players do you like and do they play guitars with floating pickups or mounted? How much will you play jazz vs pop/folk/country?

George Van Eps played a Gretsch and sounded great, as did Chet Atkins.

[MarkRhodes]

(This thread was moved here from "Chit Chat & Introductions" because some old-timers thought the OP might get more responses, and more on-point response here.)

[Longways to Go]

buy one today, and the other in 6 months.

[Raystrack]

Thanks for the reply. Of the few jazz guitarists I've heard, I'd say Martin Taylor, Earl Klug, Jonathan Kreisberg, Matt Otten, Pat Metheny and dare I say, Tommy Emmanuel. I play and write mostly pop with a swing or ragtime flavour so I'd say I'm wanting a jazzy feel with the nice, sexy chords rather than wanting to be a full-on jazz player.

A retailer friend advises me to go for the GB10 as having wider local appeal should I need to resell at some point. That's astute.

There are a couple of Youtube vids of GB10s being played with a sweet sustain (I'm not fond of Benson's actual 'muddy' tone and I suspect that using my usual round-wound Elixirs will add a bit of sparkle - I'll get my coat :-)).

I can get a GB10 NT for nearly £600 under RRP so I'm probably going with that, though now Thomann have offered a great price on the SS300. That guitar seems to offer similar features and arguably nicer cosmetics, whilst being half the price. So if he pickups are disappointing, I could swap for Gibson 57s and still be quids-in. BUT I suspect Chinese-made models will not hold their price.

I guess I've decided it's gonna be an Ibanez. It's just a shame I can't try before I buy. Thanks again.

[Para]

The SS300 is quite a bit larger than the GB10 and has set in humbuckers and 20 frets a : Length 19"
b : Width 15"
c : Max Depth 4 1/3"

The GB10 has floating humbuckers and 22 frets

a : Length 18 7/8"
b : Width 14 3/4"
c : Max Depth 3 3/8"

The top on the SS300 is solid spruce probably pressed and the GB10 has a spruce top which is probably laminated.

[Archie]

Sounds like you need an Ibanez JP-20

Small body (well 16)

about 2'3/4's deep

Wide neck (good for finger picking over others)

Sounds is tight and not muddy at all.

Simply a sheer joy to play

Can find one for a lot less than a Gb-10 and you wont lose anything on the re-sale when you do. Unfortunately they rarely come around but are about £900 when they do.

I'm based in the UK too. You're welcome to Pm me anytime about anything Jazz related if you wish. I actually have about 6 archtops right now (none of which are suitable for you), happy to show you how they behave though (construction, materials etc) if you're struggling to get your hands on Archtops and gain experience.

Can Skype me or something.

:-)

[snoskier63]

Based on your interest in a jazzy feel and sexy chords, but with a strong background in finger-style playing, the Gretschor Ibanez may work, but would not be my first choice. I would consider a Guild Starfire II from the 60's with either single coils or mini humbuckers for pickups. The single coils will be slightly brighter, but both will be able to give nice jazzy tones while maintaining excellent clarity and note separation. Here is an example currently on EBay with the mini humbuckers.

20 Off Intl Guitar Month 1967 Guild Starfire II 1 of The Line EK 2099 Cherry | eBay

And here is a YouTube clip of Doyle Dykes talking about and playing his vintage Starfire III, which is the same as a Starfire II, only with a Bigsby.

[mr quick]

Try a GB10, see if that's the guitar for you. I almost sold my car to buy a used one a few months back, fabulous guitars IMO.

[Jehu]

I'm a bit biased, but you might want to try out a Godin Kingpin. I think their sound is a bit more toward the flat-top spectrum than more traditionally built archtops, and it might tick your versatility boxes. And they are of extremely high quality for the price point.

[Max405]

That's a great forum member right there. Archies a good man.
JD

Sounds like you need an Ibanez JP-20

Small body (well 16)

about 2'3/4's deep

Wide neck (good for finger picking over others)

Sounds is tight and not muddy at all.

Simply a sheer joy to play

Can find one for a lot less than a Gb-10 and you wont lose anything on the re-sale when you do. Unfortunately they rarely come around but are about £900 when they do.

I'm based in the UK too. You're welcome to Pm me anytime about anything Jazz related if you wish. I actually have about 6 archtops right now (none of which are suitable for you), happy to show you how they behave though (construction, materials etc) if you're struggling to get your hands on Archtops and gain experience.

Can Skype me or something.

:-)

[lapideusvir]

I've been playing flat tops fingerstyle for 50 years. I'm now wanting to get into jazz licks, modes etc. and of course MUST have a new guitar. As a small person I've decided to go for a small, quality guitar and want something that is versatile enough to do jazz, pop and folk/country style picking (heroes James Taylor, Paul Simon etc.) I've narrowed it down to a vintage Gretsch 6120JR or a new Ibanez GB10 which are about the same price. Must confess I don't like orange guitars but those Filtertrons are pretty nice. Any thoughts?

I dont think a GB10 would be good for what you want to do! First: fingerstyle, the GB10 has a very narrow string separation where fingerstyle doesnt go well, imo. Second: a GB10 only sounds good plugged. If you want to have a nice acoustic tone unplugged, the GB10 will not deliver it. It is a hybrid guitar, not an archtop per se, it has to be played amplyfied.
Look out for a Peerless Martin Taylor, these are excellent for fingerstyle, are real archtops and unplugged they sound as good as plugged.

[Max405]

I agree with this and have said this from the beginning. iksnay on the ensonsbay..

Also, a Gibson es175, es165 or a Heritage 575 would do the trick nicely. Think, Joe Pass..

Joe D

[spiral]

If those are the only two choices get the Ibanez. I'm a really big Gretsch fan but I would never buy a vintage Gretsch—they can have all sorts of issues, binding rot being the most common. You end up paying more on a vintage Gretsch without much return. Current production is superior and you won't lose any mojo. Filtertrons are great though.

Everything suggested here would be great. To Joe DeNisco's suggestion I would also add on an Eastman AR371. It is similar to an ES175 but is more lively (ie. brighter) and very light. They are very deep bodies so I don't know if that is what you consider small.

You don't mention a budget but how about a Peerless Martin Taylor Maestro? They are a little spendy but have smaller bodies, and could be pretty flexible with the floater and a nice acoustic sound when unplugged. If you like a Filtertron sound the floating pickup with get close (less bass, more focus).
Maestro guitar by Peerless | Martin Taylor


[edit]
Sorry lapideusvir. Missed your post. You beat me to the Martin Taylor reco! Great minds and all that.

[Raystrack]

Thanks ever so much for everyone's kind and knowledgable replies. Archtopheaven thank you very much - I was tempted to buy your beautiful SJ500 but it's too wide - I absolutely love the cosmetics - how fickle I am. I used to pick girlfriends on looks as well - should have learned :-)

If that JP-20 was narrower it would be the one as it has a 1.75" nut, ebony fingerboard and a single pickup (I can't see me using a bridge pickup).

Para - thank you for the size comparisons. 1/8" on the length and 1/4" on the width are not enough to differentiate for me but I'm gutted to find the GB-10 is a laminate top! There again I have had many acoustics worth between £200 and £4K and know the value of decent woods for acoustic tone - should I care about a laminate top as surely the pickups determine the tone (?) especially with floaters.

I'm intrigued by the Guild. It's thinner in size and tone than I was looking for, but a British artist and tasteful player I like called Scott Matthews uses one that looks very similar. lapideusvir- you are right about the string spacing. I am cursed with a 5'4" frame and fingers like short sausages. For that reason the ES-175 which would probably be my first choice, and it's more affordable copies by Epiphone and Ibanez are too big for me. I think the Martin Taylor sig Maestro is fabulous. They seem to lose a lot of money used but I'm looking at one on eBay now.

Jehu - thank you. I've looked at the specs for the Kingpin. It looks good but the fretboard radius is flatter than I'd like. I can play what I need to for gigs with my electro acoustics but I remember how easy it was to play an Ibanez Montage I had (12" radius but a narrow nut) and want to recapture that ease.

My nearest city is Birmingham and no one stocks the GB10 nor the SS300. I see no one has come back to put in a second plug for Gretsch so I guess my original question is answered.

[Archie]

Thanks ever so much for everyone's kind and knowledgable replies. Archtopheaven thank you very much - I was tempted to buy your beautiful SJ500 but it's too wide - I absolutely love the cosmetics - how fickle I am. I used to pick girlfriends on looks as well - should have learned :-)

If that JP-20 was narrower it would be the one as it has a 1.75" nut, ebony fingerboard and a single pickup (I can't see me using a bridge pickup).

Para - thank you for the size comparisons. 1/8" on the length and 1/4" on the width are not enough to differentiate for me but I'm gutted to find the GB-10 is a laminate top! There again I have had many acoustics worth between £200 and £4K and know the value of decent woods for acoustic tone - should I care about a laminate top as surely the pickups determine the tone (?) especially with floaters.

I'm intrigued by the Guild. It's thinner in size and tone than I was looking for, but a British artist and tasteful player I like called Scott Matthews uses one that looks very similar. lapideusvir- you are right about the string spacing. I am cursed with a 5'4" frame and fingers like short sausages. For that reason the ES-175 which would probably be my first choice, and it's more affordable copies by Epiphone and Ibanez are too big for me. I think the Martin Taylor range of Peerless, great as they sound with MT playing them, are grossly overpriced. Once again, a bit wide.

Jehu - thank you. I've looked at the specs for the Kingpin. It looks good but the fretboard radius is flatter than I'd like. I can play what I need to for gigs with my electro acoustics but I remember how easy it was to play an Ibanez Montage I had (12" radius but a narrow nut) and want to recapture that ease.

My nearest city is Birmingham and no one stocks the GB10 nor the SS300. I see no one has come back to put in a second plug for Gretsch so I guess my original question is answered.

No its good that you know what you want, deviating from that point will just mean you get further and further away from what you need. Obviously a compromise will have to come unless we can find something that meets all these needs.

Perhaps put them in a post as bullet points to help us gather all the information?

[Raystrack]

I see that there is a discontinued Ibanez model, the SS500. It seems perfect for me except for the narrower than ideal nut width. Does anyone know if this is basically the same as the new SS300. Cosmetically I prefer the finish on the 500.

[Archie]

I see that there is a discontinued Ibanez model, the SS500. It seems perfect for me except for the narrower than ideal nut width. Does anyone know if this is basically the same as the new SS300. Cosmetically I prefer the finish on the 500.

I couldn't comment but I think the necks are quite big although that doesn't account form string spacing.

Put what you need in bullet points and we can go away and do some searching.

So far I gather

*Wide nut and slots for string spacing?
*neck shape (undetermined)
*body size 15' to 15'5?
*Depth up to 3" or 3.5"?
*Ebony fingerboard?
*scale length, does it matter?
*finish?
*Pick up configuration?
*Pick Up type
*etc..

Regards

[feet]

to muddy the waters some, while accounting for your size:

epiphone casino coupe:
Epiphone Casino Coupe - Small Body Casino Guitar | Andertons Blog

guild aristocrat:
Guild M-75 Aristocrat AB - Thomann UK

gretsch 6118 jr
G6118T-LTV 130th Anniversary? Jr. by Gretsch

or maybe even a gretsch jet, if you can't find one of the past or current jr models. they made baby 6120s, annies and country gentlemen, if memory serves...

[MaxTwang]

If you go with a guitar that has standard humbuckers you will always have the option of installing TV Jones Classics pickups (Filtertron style). The TV Jones' English Mount pickups fit a humbucker and even look like Filtertrons with a Gretsch style mounting ring.

[ColMc]

I see that there is a discontinued Ibanez model, the SS500. It seems perfect for me except for the narrower than ideal nut width. Does anyone know if this is basically the same as the new SS300. Cosmetically I prefer the finish on the 500.

I bought an SS300. Cosmetically the photos don't do it justice. Think of a coffee to dark chocolate sunburst. With coffee coloured cream for binding. It really is a stunner.
Oh and it's a nice player too.

[Raystrack]

Thank you once again. Of course, for some time I have had my bullet list but I find it almost impossible to set anything in stone. A beautiful looking instrument a bit wider than ideal will knock the size off the must have list. Having compared the tone on this recording to footage of George playing his GB-10 I nearly went for an Ibanez LGB30

By the way - this guy's using Di through an Apogee interface into his desktop (no amp)

However, I have now placed an order for an SS300 for the following reasons

1. It's so damn purty
2. It's only slightly larger than the GB10
3. It's half the price of a GB10
4. As it has fixed pickups (same type as the LGB30) I can replace them if necessary
5. I will be installing a GK3 midi pickup kit; the kind that requires 'surgery' - installation of a midi socket. And I feel this will limit it's future sell-on attraction for any purist - couldn't risk that on a GB10.
6. I got £100 knocked off, which paid for the pickup.

There are none in the UK so I've ordered it from Thomann in Germany.

Thanks again for everyone's help.

[MaxTwang]

Congrats on the new guitar. Let us know about it when you get it.