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I perform jazz using an old Stratocaster through a Twin Reverb, not a likely choice for getting a jazz tone, but it is all about the settings and the nuance of picking.
I set the guitar to the neck pickup lowered almost flush with the pick guard, the volume and tones full up.
I go directly into input #2 on the amp which is -6dB compared to #1, and set the treble and bass controls to full minimum all the way down, set middle all the way up.
This results in a low end without flab or boom, just a solid rich thump. The middle range of the finger board has a purity and depth that articulates notes beautifully, and the high notes are sweet without any brittle bark, strident tones, or other offensive artifacts.
The reason this works is because the operation of the tone stack circuit, like almost all guitar amps, is not what it appears to be from the knob's labels. The way the tone stack works is that the signal level goes through a gain stage of about +20dB before the tone stack. The treble and bass do not act to increase their respective frequency ranges; they work backwards from the way they are labeled. They only act to attenuate; the treble attenuates "non-treble" frequencies from the +20dB boosted signal to leave the relatively boosted treble there. Likewise the bass attenuates "non-bass" frequencies from the boosted level, leaving the boosted bass tail. The middle control is not really a tone control at all; it acts as an insertion loss recovery control - it raises and lowers the entire frequency response curve.
What all that means is that the closest setting to electronically flat response is to set treble and bass all the way down and set middle all the way up. The resulting sound will not be truly acoustically flat because guitar amp speakers roll off the highs completely at about 6Kz and the cab/combo rolls off the low end. The resulting tone is very nice, very well behaved.
Once a signal has been filtered to reduce a frequency that cannot be recovered; one can only boost the whole thing and relatively adjust down all the other frequencies. Cutting the treble at the guitar and adjusting to recover it at the amp is an inferior quality sound compared to letting the full range present itself to the amp and letting the stack operate as flat. Using the T-down M-up B-down setting on the amp does a few other things. It reduces the rated power output (which unlike hifi assumes all controls wide open) and so allows a higher volume setting on the amp for the same output level. It is the most natural of tones, the real tone of the instrument, and its response to picking technique is very expressive. It blends well with the bass player and drum kit by not overlapping their ranges, and its projection to the audience is firm without the punishing effect of trying to "cut through". The tone of chords is beautifully balanced and individual notes have a "blooming" quality (a truer representation of the sound of the instrument itself).
I recommend everyone try this. It may no be the perfect setting for all guitars, amps, and playing techniques, but for jazz it is the most natural baseline from which to adjust.
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01-08-2017 02:18 PM
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I'm not clear on why an AF75 can't get a "jazz tone".
Lots of good posts on this. I'm just trying to come up with some additional ideas.
Has anybody mentioned the capacitor in the circuit? Some people use larger values to roll off more treble.
String height can be too low. If there's a subtle clank on the frets, warmth is reduced.
Pick choice? Try it Wes style, picking with your thumb right near where the 24th fret would be (probably right over the pole pieces on the neck pickup).
Something wrong with the guitar? Check that the neck pickup works by clicking something against it (may need some metal).
Expectations? It's a 24.7 scale. Wes used 25.5. They don't sound the same. I don't think it's possible to nail Wes' tone on a shorter scale instrument. At least, I've never heard anybody do it. Obviously with guitar, I could be surprised tomorrow.
Picking style? Try a so-called "jazz pick" or thumb and turn the amp up pretty loud. That will keep you picking more gently. It can change the sound.
The metal bridge? Although I thought I've heard some classic jazz tones with a similar bridge.
Good luck!
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Step 1, buy a polytone (use a 15" if you're using a fender).
Step 2, plug in.
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For the Princeton, Deluxe, with no middle tone control... the tone stacks are the same except the variable capacitor that would be the middle control is replaced by a fixed value cap. I play my Deluxe Reverb the same way - both tones full down.
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I thought the reason for darker jazz tone was trying to avoid amp noise by turning treble down! Tone created by that became standard. And all guitarists knew that. I have mentioned that in some of my posts.
Last edited by savofenno; 08-24-2018 at 09:39 AM.
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Jazz tone is not "dark" IMHO... It is just that Rock tone is strident.. It must be like that to be heard, even the singer doesnt sing, they shout most of the time. I am not saying it is bad. It is a matter of taste. I like both styles.
Originally Posted by savofenno
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I like my tone. If I don't care for it in a given situation, I know how to get it right to please me and my playing. Many many gigs over the years, and I usually have a good tone, many compliments. It's not that difficult.
But, I went to a big guitar show, and in advance, was advised to check out a new young guy making stunning Archtops. I found his display, met him, and loved his guitars. He invited me to play them. Sure, I said. He didn't have an amp for me, he was next to a popular "jazz" amp maker and was borrowing the amps from him.
So I plug in, get a real nice jazz tone, loving the guitar!
The guy who makes the amps comes over....and while I'm playing....changes the amp tone! Turns it into mud!!! Then smiles - as if he's done me a solid? He was so proud of himself. (dick). He didn't do the luthier any favor either!
I was just so turned off, I stopped playing, and returned the guitar to the luthier. I wasn't ballsy enough then or confident in my jazz chops to tell the guy to "f&ck'in back off! Now I would because I know a few things and can play! Also I work in "construction"!
So I bought an L5 instead.
Sometimes people and their opinions and attitudes just need to be straightened out, the luthier lost a sale.
Sorry for the rant!
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I think that rolling the tone off a little helps to mute some pick and fretting noise, and by softening the attack of the notes it also makes the sound a little less "guitaristic"- I think it was Jim Hall I read somewhere who said he played in a lot of ensembles who didn't want a stereotypical guitar sound, and by rolling off a bit of the treble one gets something that (to my ear) sounds a bit more like a flute; the notes are rounded, softer attack, faster decay, even across the whole pitch range.
Just my thoughts, worth what you paid!
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"Jazz guitar" is a style more than a tone.
From my own experiences playing electric jazz guitar in band settings with horns and a drummer as well as playing solo guitar in front of an audience, I believe that the classic jazz tone derived from a few laws from the old school:
1. There must be no distortion. Not even a tiny bit. ever.
2, There must be no amp noise (hiss or hum etc.)
3, There must be no noise like fret buzz, string fizz or scraping from the pick etc.
4, There must be no sound spikes because of sloppy picking dynamics.
Before you flame me, these are old school virtues that may not be relevant today. Every man that ever played an electric guitar understands that perfection is almost impossible and even more so in the early years of electric guitar (just listen).
By adjusting the amplifier and the guitar in such a way that I minimize the risk of 1-4 above, I can play more relaxed and don't have to worry so much about making (unintentional) noise.
Old studio recording gear also had limitations and the master EQ put the final blanket over the sound. (Reverb was originally authentic room reverb, but artificial studio reverb has existed for a long time.)
We have listened to countless old recordings and learned to appreciate the playing and the sound of the masters before us. In todays world of synthesized music, small imperfections are often welcome to remind the listener that this is the real thing, a human playing a real instrument! Beautiful.
In 2018 you can make any old archtop sound like something else. If you want to. Most of us have played rock, country and blues etc, and if we combine everything we've learned we can play Jazz with a fresh outlook.
Jazz is a free art form. There are no boundaries, but there are traditions. Jazz musicians learn from fellow musicians, not necessarily from other guitar players.
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The general opinion on another forum (TDPRI) is that we throw an overcoat across the amp.
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We don't. However, many of us set Fender amps flat--bass 1,middle 8,treble 1. Everyone else sets them with a Fullerton scoop.
Regarding Christian, Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Howard Roberts, and Wes Montgomery all learned by copying his licks.
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yeah absolutely. Benson on those early records (Uptown and Cookbook) where the distortion sings every time he ‘pops’ a note louder. Wes playing chord solos where it just breaks up a little. I guess all those guys were playing small amps and pushing them, it sounds great. Originally Posted by Greentone
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Yeah, Wes on the chord solos. I was listening last night, and he gets grungy when he digs in on the chords. Originally Posted by grahambop
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For me its all about attack, fingers/thumb just sound right to me and oddly enough the pick-tones I like the best were all recorded by Van Gelder. . .I think they call that a "correlation".
re: blazers and sport coats - the right threads never hurt
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Great thread Mr. Greentone !
Funnily enough, I was in a recording studio this summer to cut the tracks of a jazz guitar duet album with my good friend Jean-Marie. Our first focus was to cut an album that would flavor a jazz guitar sound of the '50s. Quite rapidly, we realized with the sound engineer that the amount of reverb put on the tracks was the key. Personally, I woud have put zero reverb. Like this it was a direct time travel to this great golden age period for jazz guitar. But I have to admit that, with no reverb at all, it was very surprising to listen to. So we cut the apple in two, adding a touch of reverb to our recording. Soundwise, we are now probably more into the sound of the 60s, which, to me, is associated with reverb on guitar, and I'm fine with this sound. Originally Posted by Greentone
Here is a excerpt of what will be out in a couple of weeks. Jean-Marie is playing a 16" archtop with humbucker (right channel) and I am using my good prewar ES-150 with the original CC PU (left channel). '60s sound or not, it's up to you now.
Cheers.
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Hi all. I have been thinking for sometime to try my hand at beginning Jazz. My first goal is to get the tone I want - a nice clean, smooth and warm tone.
I have a Gibson LP '59 Heritage classic and a Telecaster - right now, the LP seems to have the warmer tone. The only amp I have is a Fender Bassbreaker 15.
Can you suggest the settings to get that warm, thick jazz tone I so often hear.
Right now my settings on the amp are all middle with the reverb at 3 0'clock and on the LP I am using the neck pickup with the volume and tone on about 5.
Appreciate any help in fine tuning this - It seems a bit too easy to get a "muddy" tone.
Thank you.
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I don’t know that amp, but since it’s a Fender I’d suggest starting with the amp’s bass and treble controls at zero. Start with the mid control fairly high, perhaps even maximum. Start with the guitar’s tone full up, and volume around midpoint. Set the amp’s volume control to taste. Then gradually bring up the amp’s bass and treble controls to taste. You may need to roll back the amp’s volume control a bit as you increase the tone controls to keep the overall volume constant.
Once the amp is dialed in you can tweak the guitar’s tone and volume controls a bit to refine it. The guitar’s volume control setting has a very strong effect on tone since it interacts with the pickup impedance. The frequency response is generally smoother if it’s backed off a bit.
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With everything set just as it is now, turn the knobs on your amp up or down to get rid of what you don't like and/or add what's missing (probably bass down, possibly treble up a little), so that the bass is not booming or muddy and you have the clarity of note separation when you play a chord. Each note in a chord should be clear and distinct when you strum it. Then try small adjustments with the tone control on the guitar to make minor refinements. When that is in the ballpark of what you're looking for, now turn the guitar volume off and turn the volume on the amp up to where the noise floor just starts to be noticeable, hissing enough to be heard. Now turn the volume down till this artifact noise is eliminated, then slowly raise the volume on your guitar to the level you want. It may be necessary to make minor adjustments, depending on your guitars electronics, you may have to increase/decrease the tone slightly or even turn a knob a bit on the amp, but you should experience a fatter and warmer sound at the same volume (SPL) you had before. Don't worry at all about where your guitar volume knob is (might be pretty low) as long as it sounds good.
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I'm pretty decent at getting a workable Jazz tone out of just about any rig I've come across, it's a sonic balancing act but here's my suggestions.
- Live in the neck pickup - Bridge pup will take you out of that zone automatically, Neck PU can get mushy or boomy with too much bottom, but it's really hard to get the shrill out of bridge PU.
- Roll off the highs - This is the real balancing act, rolled all the way down it's dull, flat, and won't cut thru any mix, but finding the right area of the pot where the tone is thick and full enough is the target and you have to trust your ears for that.
- Really get to know that amp - The Bassman 15 is a good amp for this tone, I've tried them out a few times and got a workable sound pretty easy. Take some time to go thru all the controls, maximize and minimize all the tone variables, see what changes the sound the most, etc. You use it regularly but have you ever really went thru each knob from 1-10? It helps you understand the capabilities and limitations of your rig.
- Picking technique - This can make a huge difference!!! I come from a Rock & Funk lead guitar background and I definitely pick softer when playing Jazz. Helps to keep a mellow tone and better intonation, rocking hard on the strings is something I avoid.
- When all else fails .......... start shopping for a hollow body or arch top.
Good luck in your quest for tone.
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Getting a jazz tone from a Tele or Les Paul can certainly be done. Roll off too much treble and it becomes muddy. Fender amps tend to cut mids and emphasize bass and treble (which is what gives the "sparkle" many people like in those amps). Flat is bass and treble at 0 and mids at 10 on most Fenders; start there and tweak to taste. On my Teles the volume knob is usually at 7-8 and the tone knob is at 4-6, but I have a tweed Deluxe and that's a very different amp.
Notice that almost all of the change in Jack's sound comes from his hands.
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Keep the treble open. Move your picking hand above the neck pickup and don’t move It. Pick firmly but not too hard and exclusively in downstrokes until you have the sound. Originally Posted by Blubarb
Les Paul is a good sounding jazz guitar. It’s what they were designed for.
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Neck pickup and lower it.
Don't pick too hard, if you can control that.
Experiment with every possible tone setting on amp and guitar (others have given excellent advice on this).
Make sure your unwound strings aren't too old.
Might help to recognize that the best tone for combo playing may not be the best for solo guitar.
Aside:
I have a recording of a very famous player soloing on Out of Nowhere using the cheapest Yamaha student model, with a lil 59 neck pickup. He played through a Crate GFX15, which I bought new for either $79 or $99, a couple of decades earlier. He sounded great and pretty much like himself.
I have a recording of a very well known player, playing my stock Strat and sounding terrific, although he usually plays nylon.
And, another recording of the first guy playing some lines I have practiced for years (and can't get up to speed) on an original stock Yamaha Silent, and sounding great. He usually gigs with a boutique archtop, but I've heard him play other instruments and sound like himself.
The point is, I guess, not to get too upset with the guitar.
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Great advice above, to which I would add that the neck pup on your LP is probably higher than is need for a nice, rich, mid-focused jazz tone. You might try lowering the pup to about level with the mounting rings and adjust upward from there if you feel the need. Best of luck on your tone quest. 
Last edited by citizenk74; 05-10-2020 at 11:23 AM. Reason: spellin'
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Confused by all the different approaches? Try them all! The settings I use depend a lot on the characteristics of the amp, speaker, cabinet design, room, and what other instruments I’m playing with, so it’s good experiment with different approaches so you’ll know how to tweak thing quickly when you set up in a new location. The advice on picking over the neck pickup is good. Sometimes picking forward of that, over the fretboard works best. I was at a jazz concert a few months ago where the guitarist moved his picking position a lot as he played, from way over the neck to close to the bridge to control the tone and percussive effect in different parts of his solos and for comping. It’s an important part of finding your voice that is easy to neglect.
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Thank you all for that awesome advice. Originally Posted by citizenk74
Great advice above, to which I would add that the neck pup on your LP is probably higher than is need for a nice, rich, mid-focused jazz tone. You might try lowering the pup to about level with the mounting rings and adjust upward from there if you feel the need. Best of like on your tone quest.
It's Sunday morning down under and now I am really looking forward to getting to spend some Sunday time with the guitar ad amp to finesse that tone I am after.
Lowering the pup is interesting and makes sense.
Many thanks for advice and the warm welcome to the forum.
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