how much would you pay for this Gibson L-5?

[jzucker]

i know but at some point you have to play it. It only does so much good leaning against the couch!

[callouscallus]

Me? 6k. Anything more ain't worth it. In fact I probably wouldn't be a buyer for anything above 5.5k. I paid less than that for my L5 and it is everything most people look for in an l5. I've seen some go recently that look great for 5.5, why pay more?

[Phil in London]

I have 2 L5s from late 80s / early 90s that have this tailpiece inlay (1989, 1991). So I guess it's period correct. It's not ebony, btw, it's plastic (see pic supplied).

I think the blonde guitar for 6,500 sounds like a good price. Of course the guitar market is not NYSE, so one cant sell on the spot. But if things dont change materially, it will be difficult to lose money on the trade.

As compared to the Barney K, the sound is of a rather different type - so it depends on what one is after and what one already has. J's 175 may be rather close to the BK sound, so the L5 may be a better add on to the arsenal. And - the blonde L5 is a beauty, whereas the BK - not sure...

[Patrick2]

Thanks Phil. Yeah . . I saw the same insert on the translucent red 1991 in the link to Norm's Rare Guitars. (above) I thought it was limited to the early-mid '80s.

[travisty]

I think if one expects one's hobby to pay for itself (buy something, use it - even semi-professionally - and then have it be worth more later), that's pretty demanding of a hobby.

It is not impossible. I have done it with a few hobbies, but I have taken a very direct approach to that in dealing with the hobbies in question. I have made no bones about investing in inventory and selling it and I did a LOT of work to make it work for me (and counting the hours, one could ask oneself whether it actually paid for itself).

If you are not that kind of person, then you should expect your hobby to cost something.
First, consider your time. If you buy an excellent L5 (call it Guitar A) for $X now, and accept its foibles, or spend dozens of hours figuring out how to buy a better L5 (call it Guitar B) for $Y, which has an implied discount to Guitar A of a couple of hundred dollars (even if it costs more, it might be "worth" even more in your deemed likely 'exit price'), you have just "earned" yourself a couple of hundred dollars for those dozens of hours. In any case, if you buy from a dealer and sell privately, you have to expect some 'friction' in the deal prices. If you buy privately and sell privately, there will be less friction, but more 'risk'. You pays your dime and takes your chances.

FWIW, I find the market for guitars interesting, and disconcerting. I have spent 25yrs dealing with markets of all kinds, and scarcity value of all kinds, and much of that time has been spent analysing the last century or several for other markets and their scarcity value. There are lots of high end archtop guitars, and there are lots of people who are long them (who own them) at lower prices who are simply willing to offer them out. It is a lot of work to keep up with them. And as we all get old, collections built up filter back out into the market. It is not like high end art where the best examples end up getting taken out of the market and going into museums. They get better with careful use (unlike high end cameras of yore, which get more used, and obsolete), but the number of users is not necessarily going up. Prices really only skyrocket in this kind of market when the number of new buyers substantially outpaces the 'market inventory' (the number of guitars readily available for sale). It is tough to know what the market is like and whether prices will last at any given level. They didn't for muscle cars, McMansions, d'Aquistos, Richard Prince paintings of naughty nurses, etc. If the object gets really widespread and international acclaim, then the scarcity will drive up prices, and will keep on going. But that is really only after the spot market for new items has disappeared. Tiffany lamps were always prized, but when Tiffany was making them, they were capped at what Tiffany was charging. As long as Gibson makes the L5, or competitors make similar high-quality guitars, unless they sound markedly better, they are probably generically capped at what Gibson charges... The moment Gibson goes out of business will be the time to load up on great L5s, but if the brand were to be taken over by someone else and relaunched, well, that would interfere in the next great bull market for L5s...

[Jabberwocky]

Datapoints. I love datapoints.

On ebay, a well fettled 2013 L-5CES Natch closed at $5817.33 on April 10th 2015 with only 2 bidders going at it over 3 days. There was also a 2005 L-5CES Natch that closed on ebay at $6100 a few weeks ago. Wilcutt's Guitars priced one, a 1999 L-5CES Natch, at $5995, in 2014. In 2013, Elderly Bros. asked $5500 for a 2003(?) L-5CES Natch with Benedetto A6 pickups.

These are some of the prices I have observed over the last 2 years.

As for the 1991 L-5CES Natch at Sam Ash, if it spoke to me, I would offer to pay no more than $6500 for it. Off the cuff, I would offer $6000 for it. If I owned it and were looking for a quick sale, $5500 would find a quick buyer in today's market.

So, try a figure between $5500 and $6500. Knowing Sam Ash, they would act all offended though.

[jzucker]

Thanks jabberwocky. And everyone else on the thread!

[goldenwave77]

I think if one expects one's hobby to pay for itself (buy something, use it - even semi-professionally - and then have it be worth more later), that's pretty demanding of a hobby.

It is not impossible. I have done it with a few hobbies, but I have taken a very direct approach to that in dealing with the hobbies in question. I have made no bones about investing in inventory and selling it and I did a LOT of work to make it work for me (and counting the hours, one could ask oneself whether it actually paid for itself).

If you are not that kind of person, then you should expect your hobby to cost something.
First, consider your time.

FWIW, I find the market for guitars interesting, and disconcerting. I have spent 25yrs dealing with markets of all kinds... There are lots of high end archtop guitars, and there are lots of people who are long them (who own them) at lower prices who are simply willing to offer them out. It is a lot of work to keep up with them. And as we all get old, collections built up filter back out into the market. It is not like high end art where the best examples end up getting taken out of the market and going into museums. They get better with careful use (unlike high end cameras of yore, which get more used, and obsolete), but the number of users is not necessarily going up. Prices really only skyrocket in this kind of market when the number of new buyers substantially outpaces the 'market inventory' (the number of guitars readily available for sale). It is tough to know what the market is like and whether prices will last at any given level. They didn't for muscle cars, McMansions, d'Aquistos, Richard Prince paintings of naughty nurses, etc. If the object gets really widespread and international acclaim, then the scarcity will drive up prices, and will keep on going. But that is really only after the spot market for new items has disappeared. Tiffany lamps were always prized, but when Tiffany was making them, they were capped at what Tiffany was charging. As long as Gibson makes the L5, or competitors make similar high-quality guitars, unless they sound markedly better, they are probably generically capped at what Gibson charges... The moment Gibson goes out of business will be the time to load up on great L5s, but if the brand were to be taken over by someone else and relaunched, well, that would interfere in the next great bull market for L5s...

Comment on guitar pricing---valuation

Lots of very interesting and valid points in this above post. I think pricey guitars are a lot like residential real estate properties: It is very hard to put an intrinsic, or reasonable value on them. IN contrast, commercial properties yield a cash flow, and at any given time, can be compared to alternative investments (corporate bond, triple net lease properties, treasuries or gilts), so one can get a better feel for their pricing.

I live just north of NYC. When Wall St. is doing well, big bonuses are handed out....the entire market for residential properties rises. Easy money, courtesy of Mr. Greenspan, and the popular mythology that home ownership is necessarily a non-risk, win-win investment of a lifetime, fueled overspeculation in residential real estate in the 90's and "oughts" that was unsustainable, and which is now just running its course. I go to visit my GF in Detroit, and drive around, and let me tell you there are properties there which make Scarsdale look slummy. Much bigger property plots, and just gorgeous stuff that sells for 40% of New York-area prices. Why?....general economic conditions: the car industry is a tiny fraction of what it used to be. Detroit, though, has come of out its municipal bankruptcy and showing some signs of life. If so, prices will move upward. Actually, in the U.S. at least for some special situation areas, I think residential real estate may just stagnate for the remainder of my life. There is a huge demographic bulge---the "pig in the python" of baby boomers who are downsizing, dying, living in group settings, etc., all of which leads to less overall demand for housing.

I think, in the US, at least there is potentially a similar phenomenon in the pricey guitar market. How many members here are retiree age looking to play some jazz guitar, now that they have the time and leisure to do so?...Like the game of golf, many will find out that it is more difficult than it looks. At some point, many will realize that having a stable of pricey guitars doesn't help much, if you haven't spent the time to actually re-program your brain, to the pt. where you can play fluidly, and can create something that sounds like music, of a jazz sort.

Given this demographic reality, I think Gibson's overall brand strategy---"U.S. made---world played" is not only canny, but practically a necessity. I guess the overall question is whether there are enough overseas buyers to pick up the slack when the "feelin' Groovy" generation starts trudging toward the exits, actuarially speaking. There are big "frictional factors"----import duties, transport costs, outright fraud in selling phony, or substandard instruments, and the inability to "try out" an instrument before playing that makes "free trade" in high-end guitars less than achievable.

Remember--a pricey jazz guitar is not a necessity, and as a non-essential "luxury good" its price is almost certainly to bounce around with the vicissitudes of how much disposable (i.e. "excess") income, people have to toss around.

Right now, if pricey Les Pauls were securities, I'd be shorting them, as geriatric baby boomers get tired of trying to be the senior ctr. version of Billy Gibbons, or the like.

[jzucker]

I offered $6000, they countered with $6300 shipped, no fees if I return it and I can return it to the local guitar center.

Probably going to accept.

[Stringswinger]

Jack, that sounds like a fair deal. A blond L-5 is a"blue chip" jazz guitar. If it is a good one, you will enjoy it.

Good luck.

Cheers,

Marc

PS. let us know how you like it.

[Jabberwocky]

I offered $6000, they countered with $6300 shipped, no fees if I return it and I can return it to the local guitar center.

Probably going to accept.

Sounds like a fair and square deal to me on both sides.

I hope it turns out well and everything that you expect it to be, Jack.

[Dennis D]

Congrats !

Hope you like it !!!

[wintermoon]

I offered $6000, they countered with $6300 shipped, no fees if I return it and I can return it to the local guitar center.

Probably going to accept.

you mean Sam Ash right?

[Phil in London]

Congrats, sounds like very good deal! :-) One thing I found out about my 2 'twins', which I assume are similar built to what you are buying: A setup by a real pro actually changes the way the guitar sings. Both were a bit on the hard sounding side, almost 'twang-type', when they arrived, and to get rid of the slightest buzzing while remaining a comfortable setup has done real wonders in freeing them up. I know, this sounds like 'stating the obvious', but the adjustments are much more important with this type than with my 67 or 49 L5, let alone other types of instruments.

[jzucker]

you mean Sam Ash right?

oops, yes lol!

[jzucker]

Congrats, sounds like very good deal! :-) One thing I found out about my 2 'twins', which I assume are similar built to what you are buying: A setup by a real pro actually changes the way the guitar sings. Both were a bit on the hard sounding side, almost 'twang-type', when they arrived, and to get rid of the slightest buzzing while remaining a comfortable setup has done real wonders in freeing them up. I know, this sounds like 'stating the obvious', but the adjustments are much more important with this type than with my 67 or 49 L5, let alone other types of instruments.

Supposedly it's perfectly setup with tomastik .012 flats which is what I use. I'm hoping that the sam ash in manhattan is better at that than the local sam ash who would put it up on the counter with no protection and have the local, "ex-rock-star" work on it.

Or like the L5 I bought and returned recently which arrived with .010 strings and setup for 1/16" action at the 12th fret. (along with other issues)

[jzucker]

oh man, i just heard back from a guy with an early '70s Johnny Smith in perfect condition. $6k shipped! When it rains it pours!

[Stringswinger]

Jack,

FWIW, I own a 90's L-5 and love it. It is a great guitar. I have only played two 70's Johnny Smith's and I disliked them both. Do not second guess your move just yet...

Cheers,

Marc

[Stringswinger]

Here is a picture of me playing my L-5 (a 96 Wes model) in a concert with Larry Coryell from a few years back.

[nopedals]

I am going to go out on a limb, but I don't think that, if Gibson goes out of business, 21st century Gibson L5s will ever, adjusted for inflation, go for more than what Gibson is offering them at now (roughly 15K list, 10K retail). Getting an old one in decent shape for 5K sounds like a safe play, but given the high dollars and limited market, you could lose money if you *had* to make a quick sale.

What you want to do, ideally, is buy one from someone who has to make a quick sale.

Those BKs are eyesores. Here's a nice price on a guitar that's more like the guitar BK actually played: 1949 Gibson ES 300 N Natural > Guitars : Archtop Electric & Acoustic - Jay Rosen. An ES-350 for a fraction of the price because there is no cutaway. Probably sounds and plays amazing. But you probably have to have a cutaway (and humbuckers).

[nopedals]

Wow; nice price on the Johnny Smith. What year? Single pup?