difference between L4 and L4 CES (mid 2000s)

[jzucker]

I found a mid 2000s L4 maple back/sides spruce top, L5 tailpiece, ebony board but the label says L4 and not L4 CES. What's the diff?

[goldenwave77]

I found a mid 2000s L4 maple back/sides spruce top, L5 tailpiece, ebony board but the label says L4 and not L4 CES. What's the diff?

What does the serial number, yr. code show?! (1st and 5th digit) I ask because I have a 2003 (Aug. 26th, /s/ by J. Hutchins), CES and it is the maple back model. I thought 2003 was the last yr. they made these with the maple back. (I love this gtr. and will never sell it.)

[jzucker]

it's a 2004, how do I find out who made it?

[2bornot2bop]

it's a 2004, how do I find out who made it?

You don't. It's only the "hutchins" models that possess an additional sticker inside notating same, which I'm certain only means Hutch oversaw the build. Like the Hutchins L5CES I just sold.

[goldenwave77]

You don't. It's only the "hutchins" models that possess an additional sticker inside notating same, which I'm certain only means Hutch oversaw the build. Like the Hutchins L5CES I just sold.

Yeah, that's exactly what I have in mine, with the date mentioned as earlier. BTW, the /s/ looks identical. I think Hutchins was getting toward the end of his career, so I'm not sure how involved he was. In any event, whether he sanded and tap-tuned it himself, or whether it was done under his direction matters not. It's by far the best instrument I've ever had. (And I did get a great deal on it as well, not that I'm going to sell it.)

[jzucker]

so i've mostly heard only the mahogany ones. Are the maple ones bright / shrill? How do they compare to the L5CES?

[L4CESN]

so i've mostly heard only the mahogany ones. Are the maple ones bright / shrill? How do they compare to the L5CES?

I can't answer, but I am interested in how the mahogany ones compare to your '89 175? I have an '89 Mahogany L4CES.

[Archie]

Yeh the two labels usually came with the Master series or Signed by Hutch or Triggs, like my Byrdland.

I originally said it was built by Triggs but had to change that, as I read the ambiguous wording on the label.

At no point does it say built by, only tested by.

[goldenwave77]

L4-CES vs. L5-CES

Don't have an L5, and have never played one, so my impressions/opinions are 2nd-hand. BUT when I play the maple-backed L4-CES thumb-like with chordal slurs, a la Wes M., I think the L4 sound is pretty close to what I hear from people playing an L5, though maybe not all the way there. Hard to put into words, but the "L5 sound" is almost like a big rich, blanket-y kind of sound. The L4 has most of that--but not all of it. Somehow the L4 sound is a little quicker "on the attack", and "on the recovery", if that makes sense. Still very rich with more complexity than a 175 type of sound, which I call "glassier".

As far as brightness, I find myself rolling off the tone knob to 7 or 8, and the vol to 8, when playing the front pu, for a jazz tone, when picking. I think the full bore front p/u is a little too "in your face"---almost like a BB King bluesy tone. (BB's gtr. also has the ebony fingerbd.) With fingers, I sometimes put back the tone. So...all in all...not too shrill by any means. I think it's a great jazz tone...between a 175 and an L5, I think. (Even though Joe Diorio played a mahog. body L4, I believe, his playing clips (the WesBlues clip on youtube) shows this pretty well.)

The L4-CES has that front pu almost right up jammed on top of the fretbd. end. I love the sound---very rich and full. But my instrument is extremely sensitive to where you are picking. Down by the bridge, it almost sounds like a big Gretsch---twangy and ringing, but up by that neck pu it is a whole different ballgame.

I think the shorter scale makes it a little softer on the attack, than an L5.


If you were in the neighborhood, I'd say come over, plug in and I think you'd see what I'm trying to put into words, in about 30 sec.

[Dennis D]

I found a mid 2000s L4 maple back/sides spruce top, L5 tailpiece, ebony board but the label says L4 and not L4 CES. What's the diff?

I can't get to those specific years, but I can offer this:

I owned a '62 175 single humbucker, basically all standard......the sound was ok, and probably the best tone it ever got was with 13/56 Labella's....didn't see Chromes early on, not exactly sure when they came out...

Then I bought an '89 L-4 CES signed by Hutchins, and I'm sure the top is solid carved spruce, and I think the back is laminated maple.....I now use 12/56 Chromes.....the L-4 sound - to me - is heads and shoulders above the 175. I just came to believe - -again my opinion, and my preference - that a 175 is always going to sound - only - like a 175. But if you only had the L-4 and still wanted that 175 sound again, you could always dial down the L-4. I wish I'd have known about an L-4 sooner.

Bottom line, I've read about your 175 searches, good and bad, I hope you at least pursue an L-4. You may very well be closer to that L-5 sound than you think, and for less money.

Good luck and I enjoy your playing !

Dennis

[Archie]

L4-CES vs. L5-CES

The L4-CES has that front pu almost right up jammed on top of the fretbd. end. I love the sound---very rich and full. But my instrument is extremely sensitive to where you are picking. Down by the bridge, it almost sounds like a big Gretsch---twangy and ringing, but up by that neck pu it is a whole different ballgame.

I found them to be very dark. I think the pup is too close to the neck. I always wanted an L4CES but could never get on with them. I only played maple versions though. I thought the top was too thick as well and the small body with the twin pups doesnt really (imo) give the carved top a chance to shine.

A much more usable tone I find comes from the Byrdland. The tone of that only advanced by the solid back and wider bout.

I would take an old L4 any day. Now thats what I wanted out of a 16" carved top Gibson.

[Danny W.]

An L-4C has a rosewood board and trapeze tailpiece and is acoustically braced. An L-4CES has an ebony board, L-5-style tailpiece and set-in pickups, with appropriate bracing. Since I assume the one in question has a pair of pickups, it's actually an L-4CES despite what the label might say, especially since it's from the 2000's.

Here I am in 1967 with an L-4C:



Gibson discontinued this version in 197--I'm not sure if they've built many since, but when they started up again in the late '80's it was the CES version for the most part.

Danny W.

[Archie]

Here I am in 1967 with an L-4C:




Danny W.

Now if I could have that guitar with an ebony fretboard and parallel bracing, i'd be a very happy man.

[Patrick2]

You don't. It's only the "hutchins" models that possess an additional sticker inside notating same, which I'm certain only means Hutch oversaw the build. Like the Hutchins L5CES I just sold.

2b . . I mentioned this a few times on other posts. While I too am sure that Hutch oversaw the build on models with his signature on the label . . . I'm also sure he oversaw the build on all other arch tops built in the Nashville Custom Shop while he worked there. It's not like if he inspected a guitar and it wasn't up to his standards, he wouldn't have the final inspector afix a label with his name on it. It's similar to Johnny Smith's name on the label of the GBJSA guitars. It's virtually meaningless . . unless it also has his signature on the back of the head stock, which was only done on the first 18 guitars. JS personally signed those guitars after they were completed. So, with Johnny Smith being the stickler for quality that he was . . I'm quite certain he went over each of them before he signed them. With all the others, he just signed a bunch of labels, that were then put in a drawer in the final inspectors bench. They were afixed to the remaining guitars long after JS went back to his home in Colorado. Similarly with Heritage JS'. He signed those labels long before the guitars they were stuck onto were ever built.

The difference with Hutch was . . he was always at the Custom Shop . . so he was always checking on the details of the build all through the process . . whether or not his signature was on the label.

[jzucker]

I found them to be very dark. I think the pup is too close to the neck. I always wanted an L4CES but could never get on with them. I only played maple versions though. I thought the top was too thick as well and the small body with the twin pups doesnt really (imo) give the carved top a chance to shine.

A much more usable tone I find comes from the Byrdland. The tone of that only advanced by the solid back and wider bout.

I would take an old L4 any day. Now thats what I wanted out of a 16" carved top Gibson.

Joe Pass sounded beautiful on his custom 175 that had the pickup against the neck. With the additional brightness you get from spruce, the pickup against the neck makes perfect sense.

[Archie]

Joe Pass sounded beautiful on his custom 175 that had the pickup against the neck. With the additional brightness you get from spruce, the pickup against the neck makes perfect sense.

It does but to me, not on a guitar that deep. If i'm not mistaken that guitar was also shallower?

They should have ditched the L5 tail piece for the Artist model one (same as the Yamaha AE ones) imo.

I think joe realised after playing his D'aquisto and Ibanez that he could get more tone in a smaller size and thats probably when Gibson came back crying and he said "well you make it like that and pay me a load of money and i'll do it" ;-)

Anyway we're talking about taste here. You've got it, so I await your appraisal with anticipation. Although you might not agree with me, I'm at least expecting you to see where I'm coming from.

[Dennis D]

An L-4C has a rosewood board and trapeze tailpiece and is acoustically braced. An L-4CES has an ebony board, L-5-style tailpiece and set-in pickups, with appropriate bracing. Since I assume the one in question has a pair of pickups, it's actually an L-4CES despite what the label might say, especially since it's from the 2000's.

Here I am in 1967 with an L-4C:



Gibson discontinued this version in 197--I'm not sure if they've built many since, but when they started up again in the late '80's it was the CES version for the most part.

Danny W.

Years ago, I'd go to see the jazz guys around here and thought they were playing 175's. I didn't know L-4's existed and wish I'd have known about them sooner. The pro's would always be on the lookout to buy these used, put p/u's in them if they had to and one guy would even have a luthier make a cutaway.

Nice photo too !!!

[Franz 1997]

Years ago, I'd go to see the jazz guys around here and thought they were playing 175's. I didn't know L-4's existed and wish I'd have known about them sooner. The pro's would always be on the lookout to buy these used, put p/u's in them if they had to and one guy would even have a luthier make a cutaway.

Nice photo too !!!

That's how I got my first L4C - there was a 58 in a London shop that had already been butchered with P90s. The looks of the guitar have never fully recovered, but it was cheap and has been fixed up. Since then I have had a couple of L4CES, a maple and a mahogany, and neither of them sounded very much like the electrified old L4, which I still have. The older guitar sounds less trebly, drier and generally sweeter.

Incidentally ATH, old L4s are parallel braced

[powerwagonjohn]

I think all the carved archtops have had the assembled, tested, tuned and signed stickers. My 2009 L-4CES is signed by James Doug Culberson another well respected builder at Gibson.
Thanks John

[Archie]

That's how I got my first L4C - there was a 58 in a London shop that had already been butchered with P90s. The looks of the guitar have never fully recovered, but it was cheap and has been fixed up. Since then I have had a couple of L4CES, a maple and a mahogany, and neither of them sounded very much like the electrified old L4, which I still have. The older guitar sounds less trebly, drier and generally sweeter.

Incidentally ATH, old L4s are parallel braced

I agree very much with your appraisal of modern L4's and thats why I dont have one.

[Danny W.]

Years ago, I'd go to see the jazz guys around here and thought they were playing 175's. I didn't know L-4's existed and wish I'd have known about them sooner. The pro's would always be on the lookout to buy these used, put p/u's in them if they had to and one guy would even have a luthier make a cutaway.

Nice photo too !!!

Thank you! I have other photos from that period, but that one's the only one in which the guitar is really visible, unlike this one:



I had that L-4C strung with heavy flats and gigged with it using a DeArmond 1100. I would never contemplate cutting pickup holes in it or any other guitar not intended for set-in pickups.

Danny W.

[Bluedawg]

You don't. It's only the "hutchins" models that possess an additional sticker inside notating same, which I'm certain only means Hutch oversaw the build. Like the Hutchins L5CES I just sold.

My 2010 L5 WES has the same sticker .. but I can't make out the signature .. it's not Hutchison of course

He died in Jan of 2010 and mine was signed on April of the same year.

[Archie]

My L5CES 97 only has one sticker and is not signed. Neither does it have Made In USA stamped on the back.

So no not every carved top Gibson has them. Mines definitely a Gibson.

[powerwagonjohn]

Bluedawg, as I said my 2009 L-4CES is signed by James Doug Culberson but it is all but illegible. I didn't know who it was until someone here posted a photo and stated who the signature was. My L-4CES does not have a serial # or Made In USA stamped on the back of the head stock either even though earlier L-4 did. Like the stampings possibly the tested labels were used off and on. I would think all the carved guitars went through the same testing procedures.
Thanks John