Aria Pro II Herb Ellis

[jzucker]

Picked up a used '83 Aria Herb Ellis guitar. It's a fantastic instrument. Brighter and more focused attack than my '89 Gibson 175 which has mahogany back and sides. I believe the more focused attack comes from the all maple body, the ebony fingerboard and the interior feedback block under the bridge. Guitar sounds like a cross between a spruce and maple top guitar. Really gorgeous sound. Equally as good as the Gibson . They can be had for under $1200 used so it's a real steal.

[EDIT] After comparing this guitar in tone, feel and playability to my '89 Gibson 175, there's no contest. The gibson is an order of magnitude better, particularly in terms of dynamics. It has easily twice the dynamic range of the Aria. I think I'm going to return this Aria for a refund.

Here are clips of them both:

Aria:

Gibson

[Archie]

Picked up a used '83 Aria Herb Ellis guitar. It's a fantastic instrument. Brighter and more focused attack than my '89 Gibson 175 which has mahogany back and sides. I believe the more focused attack comes from the all maple body, the ebony fingerboard and the interior feedback block under the bridge. Guitar sounds like a cross between a spruce and maple top guitar. Really gorgeous sound. Equally as good as the Gibson . They can be had for under $1200 used so it's a real steal. I'll post clips in the next week or two.

Yep :-)

Actually the sound post is great because i think it allows them to put a thinner top on. Thats why you get that very woody tone. I had the model down and it played and sounded better (as good) as any vintage Es-175 I've ever played.

I think it was called an EA-650? They can be bought for around £450

People have a go at me for bashing Gibson but coming from the Japanese Archtop world, you can see why I demand more for my money, or at least expect more.

[travisty]

ATH, wasn't the Matsumoku-made Aria II Herb Ellis model the PE-175?

[Archie]

ATH, wasn't the Matsumoku-made Aria II Herb Ellis model the PE-175?

I believe so.

Pe-180 (l5/S400)

Pe-175 (H.E 175)

EFA-650 (Es-175)

[travisty]

And the PE-190 was the Charlie Christian model (and also maybe the Robert Conti model?).
I think those signature models were really well made.
Beautiful guitars. Tough to find.

[jzucker]

Yep :-)

Actually the sound post is great because i think it allows them to put a thinner top on. Thats why you get that very woody tone. I had the model down and it played and sounded better (as good) as any vintage Es-175 I've ever played.

I think it was called an EA-650? They can be bought for around £450

People have a go at me for bashing Gibson but coming from the Japanese Archtop world, you can see why I demand more for my money, or at least expect more.

I'm not sure that's true or accounts for the difference in tone. I think you have an artificially negative bias against the Gibson 175 and you've said before that you don't like Joe Pass Joy Spring tone which to me is an absolute landmark jazz guitar tone. You need to state that up front when you diss the 175 so we know where you're coming from!

But...I will say that normally, playing octaves or wes style on a 175 is very unsatisfying due to the thunky nature of its character. Not so on the Herb Ellis model. It sounds great for wes type tones and I can turn the tone control down and get a very nice methenyesque tone. In fact, the tone I get on this guitar sounds more methenyesque than the PM-120 I previously owned.

And I'd put my 175 up against any japanese archtop. It's a beautifully made instrument. The action is ridiculously low with zero buzzing. Neck is absolutely perfect.

[jzucker]

Look forward to hearing clips of you blazing away on the Aria Herb Ellis, Jack.

It plays amazingly well. It doesn't seem to have much wear so I'm guessing it wasn't played very much. Yet, the neck is close to perfection. The 175 I have plays a little better but it's had a refret and pro fret-level. It doesn't look like this has ever had anything.

It's just amazing to me why the japanese archtops have so much better necks and fretwork than most of the american archtops (and I include the boutique archtop makers in this sweeping statement)

[Archie]

I'm not sure that's true or accounts for the difference in tone. I think you have an artificially negative bias against the Gibson 175 and you've said before that you don't like Joe Pass Joy Spring tone which to me is an absolute landmark jazz guitar tone. You need to state that up front when you diss the 175 so we know where you're coming from!

But...I will say that normally, playing octaves or wes style on a 175 is very unsatisfying due to the thunky nature of its character. Not so on the Herb Ellis model. It sounds great for wes type tones and I can turn the tone control down and get a very nice methenyesque tone. In fact, the tone I get on this guitar sounds more methenyesque than the PM-120 I previously owned.

And I'd put my 175 up against any japanese archtop. It's a beautifully made instrument. The action is ridiculously low with zero buzzing. Neck is absolutely perfect.

I agree but a little unfair. I think HR has an exceptional tone and he used a 175 type.

Really I was talking about what you get for the price in relation. Not which is better per say. I've played some great Es-175's and I had a really good one.

It's true I prefer the fuller more rounded tone that comes from the L5 or X-700 (As you know). In essence Es-175's are great except when you get past the 13th fret and I dont think the bass is very tight, or not as tight as I would like it.

Its true all my favs didn't play an Es-175. I could list HR, early Kenny but thats about it.

I always find the Japnaense versions are a little tighter in the bass and trebles. I dont know why usually its because the bodies aren't as deep and I think that keeps the tone more in the pocket, so to speak.

Anyway glad you're enjoying it. Nice to have a bit of ebony on the board. Actually a fairer comparison would be yours against the Gibson-775

[rob taft]

And the PE-190 was the Charlie Christian model (and also maybe the Robert Conti model?).
I think those signature models were really well made.
Beautiful guitars. Tough to find.

The Robert Conti was a PE-190 model, I own a Robert Conti model. I bought it directly from Bob when I was taking lessons with him in 1977.

[jzucker]

I agree but a little unfair. I think HR has an exceptional tone and he used a 175 type.

175 and HR are totally different instruments. HR has the longer scale, maple neck, ebony board, completely different bracing , oval sound hole, floating pickup.

Really I was talking about what you get for the price in relation. Not which is better per say. I've played some great Es-175's and I had a really good one.

It's true I prefer the fuller more rounded tone that comes from the L5 or X-700 (As you know). In essence Es-175's are great except when you get past the 13th fret and I dont think the bass is very tight, or not as tight as I would like it.

Mine sounds great all the way up the neck.

Its true all my favs didn't play an Es-175. I could list HR, early Kenny but thats about it.

I always find the Japnaense versions are a little tighter in the bass and trebles. I dont know why usually its because the bodies aren't as deep and I think that keeps the tone more in the pocket, so to speak.

Anyway glad you're enjoying it. Nice to have a bit of ebony on the board. Actually a fairer comparison would be yours against the Gibson-775

I don't think it's the body depth. I believe the Herb Ellis has the same body thickness as the 175. I don't think it's the thickness of the plywood because the thinner plywood will actually give you a looser bass response as evidenced by the eastman plywood guitars

[StevieB]

What does HR stand for? One post seems to imply it's a player while the other a guitar.

[Teddyfm]

Where does an Herb ellis pro 2 fit in?
Is it an PE 175 or?

Thinking on bidding for an 1980 model of said model.

EDIT. Didnt see your reply Archtopheaven.

Any one tried one of the HE Pro 2?

Ted

[Archie]

What does HR stand for? One post seems to imply it's a player while the other a guitar.

Howard Roberts.

A player and a guitar :-)

[Jabberwocky]

What does HR stand for? One post seems to imply it's a player while the other a guitar.

Howard Roberts the player. And also the Epiphone Howard Roberts Custom the guitar (25.5" scale length, ebony fretboard, maple neck, oval soundhole, floating pickup).

[jzucker]

Where does an Herb ellis pro 2 fit in?
Is it an PE 175 or?

Thinking on bidding for an 1980 model of said model.

EDIT. Didnt see your reply Archtopheaven.

Any one tried one of the HE Pro 2?

Ted

That's what mine is. I don't think they made a HE Pro 1. It's a great guitar. They routinely go in the $900-$1100 range so I wouldn't go higher than that unless it's been upgraded

[Archie]

175 and HR are totally different instruments. HR has the longer scale, maple neck, ebony board, completely different bracing , oval sound hole, floating pickup.



Mine sounds great all the way up the neck.



I don't think it's the body depth. I believe the Herb Ellis has the same body thickness as the 175. I don't think it's the thickness of the plywood because the thinner plywood will actually give you a looser bass response as evidenced by the eastman plywood guitars

Actually Howard played an ES175 too. I remember seeing he cut a big hole out the back and the the front before he got his sig models (I believe). It was black remember and he ended up giving it to another player, or he got it from another player.

I guess we're gonna have to disagree on body dimension V:S sound :-)

[jzucker]

Actually Howard played an ES175 too. I remember seeing he cut a big hole out the back and the the front before he got his sig models (I believe). It was black remember and he ended up giving it to another player, or he got it from another player.

I guess we're gonna have to disagree on body dimension V:S sound :-)

very early he played a 175 but relatively early in his career switched to his namesake epi and later gibson model.

I knew howard by the way. There's a clip of he and I playing together on my youtube channel.

And you have haven't proven your case regarding body dimension at all. You seem to jump to conclusions based on speculative information like body depth and top thickness that have little basis in fact. I already pointed out you were wrong on body dimension on the Ellis vs. the 175 and on top thickness as in the Eastman 371 vs the 175.

And I can easily demonstrate that the treble strings have more focus and thickness on my 175 than they do on my herb ellis.

Face it, you have an anti-gibson-175-fetish. You have an answer in search of a problem

[pingu]

I like those Aria Herbs they're really well built solid guitars
I very nearly bought one for £450 couple years ago ... probably should have !

hey Jz ! you play great , you is fast man !

what you on ?

[wintermoon]

Roberts played an ES-175 that he later sold to Jim Hall in the mid 50's.

Roberts played a modified [added cutaway/refinished black] prewar Gibson ES-150 w/Christian pickup for years.

Then he began his endorsement deal w/Epiphone and Gibson

[Archie]

very early he played a 175 but relatively early in his career switched to his namesake epi and later gibson model.

I knew howard by the way. There's a clip of he and I playing together on my youtube channel.

And you have haven't proven your case regarding body dimension at all. You seem to jump to conclusions based on speculative information like body depth and top thickness that have little basis in fact. I already pointed out you were wrong on body dimension on the Ellis vs. the 175 and on top thickness as in the Eastman 371 vs the 175.

And I can easily demonstrate that the treble strings have more focus and thickness on my 175 than they do on my herb ellis.

Face it, you have an anti-gibson-175-fetish. You have an answer in search of a problem

Its a tricky one to answer JZ because i have to assume that we have the same ears. I'm not sure we do but we meet in the middle sometimes, like over the X-700 for example.

Sometimes what you regard as good tone I don't agree with and I'm sure visa versa. I would also add that if you had some of the models I did, you might have a better place to debate from. As it happens, I've had both and you've predominantly had the 175.

Get yourself a Greco FA or an Ibanez FG-100 and let talk again ;-)

[jzucker]

HaHa well in all good jest I would say your not, not for this debate. You fail to have one of the smaller bodied Japanese Es-175's I keep talking about. The Ibanez FA-100 is more an exact 175 copy.

Actually not, it has a maple neck and a spliced on neck-heel.

The Fg-100 is a different beast altogether. So is the Greco FA-95, Washburn J-10, Ibanez JP-120, Ibanez FB-100 :-)

Until you get one of those, I will feel comfortable in my opinion ;-)

I'm looking. Not familiar with the JP-120 or FB-100

Out of curiosity though which one was your fav?

Oh and come on man, he played all guitars the same way, through the sme amp and I imagine on the same settings. The Es-175 sounded predictably cold, dull and brittle as so many I have tried did. Not saying they are all bad, some are excellent and I will concede to yours sounding very nice.

No, his technique and sound were flawed so they all sounded bad IMO. Plus, we all know that Gibson 175s vary extremely based on when they were made and other factors. The '50s instruments like what abercrombie plays are completely different than the '64 instrument Joe pass used on Joy spring which is completely different than the '70s 3pc mahogany neck versions which are different than the 3pc maple versions, and then the '80s versions with mahogany back and sides and then the 90s "reissues" and then the '59 reissue. Plus, the individual setup will vary.

Out of all my guitars, my favorite was probably the '75 L5. I had that when I studied with Pat Martino and I stuffed it with 6lbs of upholstery cotton on his recommendation and with .016-.059 strings and high action it sounded almost exactly like his tone on "strings". When I first stuffed it I probably used a single roll of cotton (~3lbs worth) and on my next lesson, he poked his finger in the F-Hole and said I needed to double it up. He told me it needs to be packed so tight that you can't budge it with your finger.

[Eric Rowland]

I have a PE175 HE I bought in 1983 for about $800. Wonderful instrument.

[jzucker]

I have a PE175 HE I bought in 1983 for about $800. Wonderful instrument.

what makes yours a I and not a II ?

[jzucker]

wait a minute archtop heaven, I just realized the joe pass is the JP-120. If you think that sounds better than a 175, along with the questionable judgement that Joy Spring sounds horrible, this completely disqualifies you from making tonal judgements in the future!

[oriv]

jack I didn't know you owned a holst laminate, was that an archtop or semi? how did you like it?