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in terms of the tone - i've just re-discovered bruce forman
he almost always plays an L5 ces and - it seems to me - his sound is straight down the middle - no particular eccentricities (that's not to say its less than fabulous)
so if you want to hear a kind of straight-ahead example of what they sound like played well i'd go to youtube and listen to some bruce forman
he's making me take the idea of getting one seriously (for the first time)
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01-31-2015 01:35 PM
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If you put aside the aesthetics and brand-related prejudices, it seems to me that you could get the L5 sound out of a number of other makes of archtops, many of them much less expensive.
Like most guys, I get guitars based on the whole package. And the L5 is a fine package indeed.
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IIRC, Danny W lives in the Phoenix area. When I used to spend time there with the in-laws I marveled at the active swing/jazz music scene. My brother in law played tenor/soprano sax in a working band. It is a cool scene.
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I think Cherry rather than wine, as I've often dug that pic of Benson playing some custom Ibanez with L5 dimensions. Looks hot! They are all beautiful. I have my TSB Wes, but am still jonesin' for a blonde CES, ala that album cover pic of Wes. THE classic, IMHO.
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I would bet many of us...at one time or another...have wanted the CES in blonde, just like the Wes cover. I came precious close to buying one in 1980 for that reason. Then I had my head turned by a Kalamazoo Award.
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From reading some of your posts I have come to much the same conclusion--must be different planets. I've been gigging for almost 58 years and have never played a place where projectiles were likely to be headed towards the bandstand. The first time I saw chicken wire in front of a stage was in "Blues Brothers." Over the years I just decided that I would not play in places where I would ever feel unsafe in any way, even if it meant turning down work. When I grew up in NYC I played mostly sedate teen clubs and beach clubs--the occasional pool hall or bowling alley too, but even those rarely had fights. When I was in the Army my jazz group played almost exclusively in Officer's clubs; when we played in town it was at high-end clubs or resorts. After that I had a group that did mostly pricey weddings and posh functions of various kinds. After that a group that did mostly corporate functions. Since retiring and moving west sixteen years ago it's pretty much all country clubs and upscale active adult and retirement communities. And an occasional ballpark
Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
I really do enjoy it, so thanks!
Three hundred days of sunshine and mass quantities of old people to supply both players and audiences. As we said back in snowy New England-- "finestkind" Originally Posted by Greentone
Danny W.
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Well, fair enough. Name three for starters. Should be a short putt, right? Originally Posted by Marty Grass
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I did say that it seems you could get the L5 sound for less money. The point is that the L5 is just a physical object with a mystique about it. No one knows that fact better than the ones who shaped the design and execution of the L5.
Growing up in Kalamazoo during the Gibson era, we all knew the Gibson employees. In my case, my family knew some of the executives. For example, Julius Bellson was my mother's bridge partner. Julius was a fabulous player and was instrumental in bringing out the humbucker into the archtop at Gibson, working closely with Seth Lover on pickup position on the top. From him I picked up his general attitude about the marketing of his products.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gibson-sto.../dp/B0006CBFJC
I had a more mundane understanding of the construction of the Gibson archtops between the 60s through 80s by knowing those who did it every day. These were factory workers who did their jobs well for the most part. The large majority got a job at Gibson because they simply needed a job. In the early 60s Gibson was making 400 guitars a day.
Some of those guys stayed in Kalamazoo to form Heritage. My luthier, who started working at Gibson in the early 60s, has his own shop. For years he was doing Gibson's repairs and restorations and driving the guitars to Nashville. I have listened to many hours of his experience.
One anecdote, to digress, is that Ted McCarty needed to create more storage space on the Parsons Street facility. He told my luthier, Pete, to take these boxes of pickups they weren't using anymore to the dump. Pete said he threw out literally over a thousand new PAFs.
The point of providing this background is that for those of us who have lived closely with the production of Gibson archtops, there is no mystique.
I can't tell you three specific guitar models with the L5 sound because I've never had the resources, the time or the inclination to do this. So I simply stated that it seems that you could get the L5 sound for less money.
What I can tell you with confidence are a couple of things based on my experience playing L5s and owning one plus my experience with Heritage. First, each individual instrument sounds slightly different from another of the same model. So there is a bit of variation there. Second, the difference between the L5 CES and the Heritage Eagle Classic when both have 57s is negligible. Used Eagle Classics go for $2K, sometimes less. (I sold my last one on eBay for $1700.) The Heritage Golden Eagle with 57s can do the same job but will cost a few hundred more. The Heritage Henry Johnson will cost a bit more and will nail the sound, too.
I don't know if any of the lawsuit Ibanez archtops can duplicate the L5. Ibanez nailed the sound of my Kalamazoo built Howard Roberts though.
Another possibility is a solo luthier for a personal build. Gibson manufactures their archtops and is therefore efficient. But the wholesale price is roughly half of the retail, so there is cost there. And much of the wholesale price is used to offset marketing and other indirect expenses. While I've never played a Campellone, I wonder if that's a reasonable way to go. Here's a used one with specs similar to the L5 sans pickup for $5300.
Campellone Deluxe Blonde Cutaway Archtop Flamed Maple Jazz Guitar 64 Made | eBay
In summary, I got no beef with L5s. I very much appreciate its historic importance and classic elegance. And they helped put food on the table of many families in Kalamazoo I grew up with. I'd love to have a wine or cherry L5. But I most certainly see them differently than some other players due to my background.
Originally Posted by fumblefingers
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That's easy. Originally Posted by fumblefingers
All of these are available with set-in pickups:
- Heritage Golden Eagle (and various related models)
- Campellone - Mark specifically models his 17" offerings on the Gibson L-5.
- Guild X-700
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Originally Posted by NSJ
There are some interesting new L5s out there if you know where to search for them
Is this similar to yours?
Gibson Custom Shop L-5 Premier Natural | Rainbow Guitars
A cutaway L5 acoustic with a floater?
They have a few near me in Tucson .... also at places like Daves, Wildwood, and more
I want one ... but I'm already well set for Gibson archtops
I love the electric sound .... not sure if the acoustic sound is any better than my L5WES, though, and my wife feels the same way
I also have a Le Grand so an L5 with a floater would kind of be a duplicate ... not that there's anything wrong with having duplicate guitars
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Is it worth it? To me, no, but then I actually prefer plywood archtops. And I really prefer my Tele and my gypsy guitar
But to you? Only you can really answer that. That instant bonding feeling you get with certain instruments is important and should be listened to. But it's not the whole story.
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I guess there is a mash of players who want the sound, players who love the history and vibe of a prewar instrument, and then mix those two with investment collectors. It's the last one that drives those prices up. A investment collector will pretty much buy anything they think will rise substancially in value over time - so even unplayable instruments have their place in that philosophy. But if its a superb instrument, very playable, and in great condition, the collectors are the ones deciding on it's price - not the playing community. Take a visit to any vintage shop - it's a strange parallel World of instruments to us players. "How much!?!?", is pretty much what you hear yourself saying.
Walk into a good luthiers and here's another parallel World of guitars. All new, many options, infinite options. The prices don't have a collectable multiplyer factored in. The prices pretty much reflect the work hours, the craftsmanship, experience of the luthier, and the material costs x supply and demand. If lots of players want these guitars the price shifts up as supply may be inflexible.
In the World of violins, there seem to regular play-offs with Stadavariuos violins being blind tested against contemporary made top quality violins. Often the experts cannot tell the difference or choose the new one over the classic - resulting in media headlines. Because this is a high profile collectors market no pro players can afford to buy these top quality instruments and have to rely on owners lending them (after all they need to be played to keep them in good condition).
So as a working musician you'll probably go for an off the shelf new model, followed later as you get a regular income, a better new luthier made model. Personally I'd be paranoid about taking a high value guitar like an L5 on the road - a loss could wipe out my income for the year! So for me about $3-4000 would be my upper budget - so I don't see any L5s and uber nice Guild's coming my way soon.
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Chris,
The L5 is made for the road. Seriously. When you pull an L5 out of the case, it exudes quality, durability, presence and overall Excellence. The L5 doesn't go out of tune. The neck never changes shape. Its sound it consistently, well, L5 like..
The sad thing, I bought my L5 after I saved my money and fulfilled my lifelong dream. I play it occasionally. I rarely take it out of the house. I treat it like its a piece of art made out of balsa wood. That's not what it is. It is a guitar made for the guitarist who works. It needs/deserves to be played in front of 1,000's people. Its the king of Jazz Guitar tools.
Once you get one, you will see what I mean. You will feel like it cant get better. And then... You start looking for a real D'Angelico you can afford... IT NEVER ENDS!!!
Good Luck,
Joe D.
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Joe, I get the sense that Chris is decidedly not one of those people. There are some who are, miraculously, blissfully immune (although I prefer when they don't disparage the rest of us with their snarky signatures). Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
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09-02-2015, 08:54 AM #115destinytot GuestI prefer the luthier route, but I'd make an exception for a pre-war L5. (I find just the thought of one inspiring.) Originally Posted by rpguitar
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Yeah, after really READING Chris's post I agree. I didn't do my homework on that one. That tends to happen a lot with me. Gotta learn. Originally Posted by rpguitar
The subtle irony of my post was after fulfilling my dream which really was buying an L5 (a production made Guitar par excellence') I plan on looking for a D'Angelico, who was the Grand Daddy of all independent luthiers. Sort of ties it all together in a nice neat bow..
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Many, many years "Time" "Guitar" "$$$$$"
If I can Start over Again " My First Guitar is L-5 CES or Wes M~~~ "
Last edited by 999369; 09-02-2015 at 09:34 AM.
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There were years when I worked in business when I bought a Guild and a DeLuxe Reverb - but when I went full time with the music I had to budget better because it wouldn't have made financial sense otherwise. So my only splash out was a hand made version of a J45 by Tom Waghorn in Bristol. A that time you could buy one from him at something like £1450 which was the same price as a 'real' J45. It's the most I have ever spent.
Maybe if the Guild S300-A I bought in 1982 for £350 outlives it's jazz uses I might go for another Tom Waghorn F hole guitar - which are more like the Collings sort of chambered construction. But I also have an unusual Takamine flatop with sunburst finish and cutaway that can be pushed into service with an alternative sound/vibe - if you can control the treble from its piezo p/u. The Takamine sure looks the part for those thirties retro work, but it was new when I got it in about 1998. Never seen another like it. (No I didn't buy it, it was a present from a good friend who's a guitar enthusiast!!)
I am not saying I don't love those old guitars and understand what they can do. I just can't justify the cost - and since I am a nobody, Sadowsky, Collings, Gibson, etc, won't be calling me up with an offer of a free one to use on my next fictional European sell-out tour.
BTW - it took me four years to pluck up courage to take the J45 on a plane to Italy - gate checked it both ways and it actually travelled in the overhead lockers! (Good on you British Airways - I'm now a customer for life)Last edited by ChrisDowning; 09-02-2015 at 10:23 AM.
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Price is not always "justified" by tone, playability, quality, cost of labor but simply by desirability; law of the market.
Is an L5 a desirable guitar for its smoky tone yes; so the answer to the OP question is most definetely YES.
For instance a RI Tal with its marvelous tone is relatively cheap on the used market despite being far more scarce than a 175 because it is not as desirable for whatever reasons probably esthetic for some.
On the other hand, I understand the reluctance of the OP to tour with 5-10K guitars...Last edited by vinlander; 09-02-2015 at 10:33 AM.
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Phoenix Area " 420+miles one way " Originally Posted by Danny W.
From reading some of your posts I have come to much the same conclusion--must be different planets. I've been gigging for almost 58 years and have never played a place where projectiles were likely to be headed towards the bandstand. The first time I saw chicken wire in front of a stage was in "Blues Brothers." Over the years I just decided that I would not play in places where I would ever feel unsafe in any way, even if it meant turning down work. When I grew up in NYC I played mostly sedate teen clubs and beach clubs--the occasional pool hall or bowling alley too, but even those rarely had fights. When I was in the Army my jazz group played almost exclusively in Officer's clubs; when we played in town it was at high-end clubs or resorts. After that I had a group that did mostly pricey weddings and posh functions of various kinds. After that a group that did mostly corporate functions. Since retiring and moving west sixteen years ago it's pretty much all country clubs and upscale active adult and retirement communities. And an occasional ballpark
I really do enjoy it, so thanks!
Three hundred days of sunshine and mass quantities of old people to supply both players and audiences. As we said back in snowy New England-- "finestkind"
Danny W.
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In the 60s I used to check guitars with airlines and I _never_ had a problem. A guy like Wes could tour with a L5 without mishap. Air travel was MUCH different back then. Essentially, everything was smaller volume and it was all sort of luxury travel. People used to wear coat and tie to ride airliners.
In the 70s I checked guitars and problems started popping up. Airlines were beginning to bristle with traffic and less attention was paid to handling baggage with care.
Today, it is a frank crap shoot. Air travel is so over-taxed with people and freight going place to place, and the overhead bins are crammed to the max. If I were touring today, I would stick to my Telecaster and an airline case. I'd use a preamp and go through the PA or provided backline amp. I wouldn't even check a laminate archtop.
Even so, I have to have an L5 or equivalent for personal enjoyment and near-home gigs. End of story.
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Oops! I misspoke. I flew from Honolulu to San Francisco in '67 and one of my classical guitars went to Tokyo by mistake. When it did get to me, though, it was perfectly fine. Regular hardshell case, checked baggage. Guitar has been all over.
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it's sad to see some of Patrick's post in this thread....
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I would agree that it's not worth spending big bucks on a guitar, period, if you are a modestly paid, gigging professional whose assets are limited.
The Gibson L-5 is, however, worth what the market demands for it. It's naive to think it's all collector driven. Most of them are bought and played by normal people, and they are not rare at all, really. I'd say only the rarest species of L-5 are influenced by collectors (Loar signatures; early post-Loar era; 1939 L-5PN in particular).
I see the issues in the above two paragraphs as different questions altogether.
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> I haven't seen any of Patricks' pieces for sale on the forum. What thread are they under? Originally Posted by wintermoon
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