Is the Gibson L-5 worth the big bucks

**GNAPPI** · 01-27-2015, 07:37 AM

"regarding guitars it means that while a 800$ guitar may might sound twice as good and be double the quality of a 400$ guitar, a 8000$ guitar won't be 10 times the quality of an 800$ guitar and won't be sounding 10 times as good all other factors being equal (amp and player in this instance). "

GR8 example, it reminds me of a quote from Wernher von Braun

"Crash (development) programs fail because they are based on theory that, with nine women pregnant, you can get a baby in a month."

**boatheelmusic** · 01-27-2015, 07:38 AM

Within limits, nothing but practice will change this:

"an astoundingly better player than I am"

**rpguitar** · 01-27-2015, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by bharshman56

You know how amazing it feels to just connect with a guitar. I felt that. What a beautiful looking guitar. Not only that, but it was so smooth to play. My runs were faster and cleaner. Finally, the tone was out of the world. So my question is did I just feel that way because it was my first time playing a really high end instrument or is it really that good in your opinion.

First you effuse genuine emotion, then you ask that...

When you have strong feelings about other things in life, do you ask a bunch of strangers on the internet if you are "right" to have the feelings?? Who cares what anybody thinks but you in this situation? Usually the people asking that question are clueless and are only reacting to the reputation of things; i.e. what they read about or watch. You've actually played it, held it, etc. - so now you know. End of story.

**Patrick2** · 01-27-2015, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

afaik this is not what the law of diminishing returns is about. the law of dim ret states that while an x amount of workers will produce an y amount of goods, a 2x amount of workers will not produce twice as many goods all other factors being equal.

regarding guitars it means that while a 800$ guitar may might sound twice as good and be double the quality of a 400$ guitar, a 8000$ guitar won't be 10 times the quality of an 800$ guitar and won't be sounding 10 times as good all other factors being equal (amp and player in this instance).

So?? What's that got to do with the price of corn?

Unless I misunderstood the comment of diminishing returns, it was made in conjuction with the OP's question of . . "is it worth it". My reply was specific to . . is it worth it to the guy who's considering plopping down the coin to buy one. In that context, the business aspect, as well as the functional aspect is totally irrelevant.

**Max405** · 01-27-2015, 10:22 AM

Bottom line, if you have the money to spend and it's Not going put your family in peril, then it's worth it. i just played mine. It's nice. Gotta go, soup kitchen closes in an hour.

**Patrick2** · 01-27-2015, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Spook410

There is a discussion on financial returns that's kind of boring as it involves compound interest returns versus however much a given guitar might appreciate or depreciate. However, most people already know guitars are not investments so we can spare that horse. As for the bringing us joy part, does a more expensive guitar necessarily make us happier than a guitar that meets all our needs but costs less? For some I'm sure it matters a lot and there's certainly nothing wrong with that pursuit, but for me, I think of features and sound when I think about archtop guitars worth getting excited about. Not brand or cost.

Agreed! Features and sound are definitely high on the list of things worth getting excited about. But, for me and many others, not at the expense of all the other things worth getting excitited about. Almost all who are fortunate enough to own one . . or several, of the Gibson family of L5 guitars, experience all of the tangibles you mentioned . . as well as all of the intangibles I and others have mentioned. "The icing on the cake" of having the L5s retain most, if not all of their initial acquistion cost to the owner . . and in many cases a postive return on those costs, is not at all relavent to, nor should it be equated to investments made for the sole intent of realizing a financial profit. As I said, for the owners of Gibson L5s, it is . . . "the icing on the cake".

As to your question of "does a more expensive guitar necessarily make us happier . . . . " Here again, let's cast the cost of the guitar aside. We're discussing the merits of the Gibson L5 .. not the costs associated with it. I'm sure you'd not find a single Gibson L5 owner on the entire planet who wouldn't be absolutely thrilled if these wonderful iconic instruments, rife with historical significance, were abailable to use at the price of a D'Angelico EX-SS.

**Takemitsu** · 01-27-2015, 10:22 AM

since I prefer short scale guitars, spending 8000$ on a L-5 would be a stretch...

**rpguitar** · 01-27-2015, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by Takemitsu

since I prefer short scale guitars, spending 8000$ on a L-5 would be a stretch...

Buy one made between 1923-1938, and you'll be able to avoid the stretch. They are 24.75".

**Takemitsu** · 01-27-2015, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

Buy one made between 1923-1938, and you'll be able to avoid the stretch. They are 24.75".

It was (mostly) a (failed) attempt to humour.

**Max405** · 01-27-2015, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by Takemitsu

It was (mostly) a (failed) attempt to humour.

no fail at all. I got it and smiled. We are all pretty cerebral around here.

**John A.** · 01-27-2015, 10:54 AM

The OP notes how great the L5 felt in comparison with his current guitar. I think it's worth noting that playing something new/different from what you have often has this effect, and the effect often doesn't last. Given that the OP's D'A EX-SS and an L5 are so different (dimensions, construction style, woods, scale length), that you can't even really evaluate one being "better" than the other. I'd say that if you're so, um, jazzed at the sound and feel of an L5, it would probably make sense to try a bunch of other carved top guitars before pulling the trigger.

John

**Patrick2** · 01-27-2015, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

no fail at all. I got it and smiled. We are all pretty cerebral around here.

Yeah . . I got the "stretch" reference too. I thought it was great. I also got your "soup kitchen" reference. That too was great. I think rpguitar would have picked up on it as well . . if he wasn't so exhausted from shoveling all that snow they didn't get up the in Northern NJ. :-)

**Beanctr** · 01-27-2015, 11:15 AM

Keep your eyes open for a good deal, you never know. In 2001 I had an order in to MF for a L-5 studio and it was a long wait. In the meantime they had a MF "scratch & dent" wine red WesMo come up for $3,800. Wine red is about as cheap as you can get into a L-5. I jumped on it and cancelled the studio. The guitar was basically new. I think these scratch and dents are customer returns or overstock. I may not play it as much as my 175 but when I do I really enjoy it.

Rick

**fritz jones** · 01-27-2015, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by Takemitsu

since I prefer short scale guitars, spending 8000$ on a L-5 would be a stretch...

get a guild for 1/4 of that price. short scale, no kerfed bracing.

**Patrick2** · 01-27-2015, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by John A.

The OP notes how great the L5 felt in comparison with his current guitar. I think it's worth noting that playing something new/different from what you have often has this effect, and the effect often doesn't last. Given that the OP's D'A EX-SS and an L5 are so different (dimensions, construction style, woods, scale length), that you can't even really evaluate one being "better" than the other. I'd say that if you're so, um, jazzed at the sound and feel of an L5, it would probably make sense to try a bunch of other carved top guitars before pulling the trigger.

John

Definitely true, as related to the OP's question . . if the feeling of euphoria that he experienced was specific to the L5 . . or was it because it was his first time playing a "high end" (as he put it) guitar. As many on this thread have said, if all one needs from a guitar is to achieve that euphoric feeling that he did . . even if from a generic non branded and ugly guitar . . then spending the money for an L5 is not the way to go. But, what we "worshippers" of the L5 are saying is . . it still wouldn't be an l5. For, only an L5 . . is an L5. But, what's not true, is that this would alway be the effect of playing something new/different from what you have". What if the OP always had the L5 he experienced . . and the new/different guitar was thr D'A EX-SS? Would it be safe to assume that he wouldn't have come away with the sames experience? I think it would be.

How's this for pertinent statements? "The only thing better than a bad L5 . . is a good L5." "Likewise, the only thing better than a good L5 . . is a great L5." Yeah . . I like that!! I think I'll roll with that going forward in these discussions . . because, I'm quite sure they'll continue to come up.

**Broyale** · 01-27-2015, 11:26 AM

I bought an L5 WesMo last year after falling out of love with the ES175.
Great instrument, already plotting on a CES model in the future. It was worth it for me, maybe it will be for you, who knows. Patrick2 has one going for a pretty reasonable price in the for sale section.

**Marty Grass** · 01-27-2015, 12:13 PM

I love this topic. There will never be a consensus.

My story is different from everyone else's, but it illustrates how symbolism over logic can be determinative.

At 18 years old, I had a beautiful blond late 1920s L5 with a McCarty pickup. I happened on it at a low price since I grew up in Kalamazoo and these kinds of finds were not rare in the basements and attics of deceased Gibson ex-employees. So you'd think I'd be completely satisfied. But nothing could be further from the truth.

My teacher had a Gibson Johnny Smith. He was a music grad student at Western Michigan University, and the JS was his prized possession. He played it well and rarely let me even touch it. That guitar was the most expensive Gibson in their catalog at the time. These factors burned into my brain that the best archtop in the world was the JS. Forever after, whatever I played would be inferior if not a JS.

Thirty five years later I finally got one. It was great but soon I recognized its limitations.

I am convinced that it was essential that I get a JS. Now that I have I could move on.

The L5 is a fine guitar, assuming you don't get one of the rare lemons. There are a few things about it I don't care for, but these are minor and strictly personal preference stuff.

The body is a little deeper than what I'd like. I don't find the extra depth to be an asset when playing amplified.

I have no use for the bridge pickup. The Wes model would be a better fit for me. The extra hardware adds to the weight, the cost, and dampens the top.

Higher fret access is problematic. The cutaway could be deeper, like Guild does. The Florentine cutaway also helps. Also, the neck joint could be engineered to allow easier high fret positioning.

There's this bias that draws us to the high end Gibsons that comes from the 50s and 60s jazz icons- Johnny, Wes, and Kenny. There's an implied promise that we would sound better, more like them, if we had their instruments. That is mostly a lie. Listen to Grant Green, Tal Farlow, Barney Kessel and Joe Pass. How did they sound so good on lower echelon Gibsons? And why didn't they only record with the high end instruments?

Decades ago there was a rock band called Spirit. They were pretty successful by any standard. The guitarist, Randy California, played a Sears Silvertone solid body when he obviously could afford any guitar. When asked why, he said he liked how it played and sounded.

To be a bit tangential, Spirit later broke up. Their bass player joined Heart. Randy pursued a solo career. He died while saving his drowning son.

Back to the L5. I'd suggest that you get one if you feel you can afford it and it is necessary for your growth. You'll probably do better getting a used one, like Patrick's Wes. That will save you money and you'll be assured that you got a good one.

**larry graves** · 01-27-2015, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

Bottom line, if you have the money to spend and it's Not going put your family in peril, then it's worth it. i just played mine. It's nice. Gotta go, soup kitchen closes in an hour.

Nice one Joe"...L..

**Bluedawg** · 01-27-2015, 12:41 PM

In some ways its like owning a Les Paul, Strat, or Tele ....

Even if its not the right guitar for you .... the best way to find out is to own one

**larry graves** · 01-27-2015, 12:45 PM

Being a Gibson man for over 50yrs I suppose I'm biased, but hey! if you've got the wedge buy it! if you have to sell the wife's jewellery or raid the kids piggy bank er... buy it!!....

**Patrick2** · 01-27-2015, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

it's probably a language thing but i don't understand a word you're saying. price of corn?? wtf? you said you were unfamiliar with the term so i explained it to my best knowledge.

quote:

"Yeah . . I knew exactly what 4thstunning meant. I just wanted it explained as it relates to the L5. Diminishing returns? I paid $4,700 for my L5CES brand new back in 1994. Today, I could probably sell it for 40% to 50% more than I paid for it, given its still like new minty condition."

this is not the law of dim ret. the LoDR is about the relationship between input and output and has nothing to do with resale value.

carry on.

Yep! It's a language thing. The phrase "What's that got to do with the price of corn?" . . is just another of way too many goofy American metafores. It means . . What's that got to do with the topic of discussion?.

To your point, I souldn't have said that I was unfamiliar with the term diminished return. Most in the business world use it way too frequently for any to not be familiar with it. I should have said I'm not familiar with, or in agreement with its usage in this context.

**Spook410** · 01-27-2015, 04:01 PM

I think you noted the key thing Patrick: for many, there is an intangible appeal to these guitars. If that quality inspires you to play and enjoy the instrument then cost, within reason, gets rationalized somewhere within the depths of stoking the human experience. Something that Gibson marketing, no doubt, is relying on. Of course, for those of us that just see it as another guitar with a certain set of features and a certain sound, the cost is hard to justify.

**Skip Ellis** · 01-27-2015, 04:35 PM

No offense to those who like 'em - I personally do not and I've played a bunch of them over the years and I owned a '47 Super 400 that ended up in a museum plus a real nice Johnny Smith at one time. There are other guitars out there for fewer $$$ that I'd much rather have. I will admit that L-5's are a thing of beauty to look at but, to me, playing one is like driving a stick shift dump truck compared to a new 2015 Corvette - you have to work waaaay too hard to get anything out of them. Of course YMMV...... What do I know - I play homemade Telecasters! It may have something to do with carved top guitars - to me, they work you to death trying to get any tone out of them and to me, all the Wes's and L-5's I've played have had unusually thick necks - I once drove 100 miles to try out my first Wes with every intention of buying it. As it turned out, I played it for 10 minutes, put it back in the case, said "thank you" and drove the 100 miles back home - a very disappointing trip to say the least. If I had to pick my favorite archtop out of all I've owned, I'd pick the Japanese Fender D'Aquisto Elite single PU version - I've had 3 of them and they've all been jewels.

To you folks who own L-5's, Super 400's, Benedettos, etc., do you actually take them out and gig with them? I can probably count on one hand the number of places that I've played in the past 40 years where I would even consider taking a guitar of that caliber through the front door - mostly orchestra pit and a few country club jobs, but nowhere else.

**kamlapati** · 01-27-2015, 04:39 PM

I really love L-5's, that why I have two and I would have more if I had all the money (and space) in the world. They're worth it to me.

But maybe more important to the OP, I remember the first time I played a real carved top guitar. It was eye opening; I had no idea a guitar could sound and feel that good. After 30 years, I still feel that way when I pick up any of mine. They are really, really, a lot different from a ply top instrument, that is not your imagination.

Dear OP: keep searching, keep playing, keep enjoying.

**John A.** · 01-27-2015, 04:57 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Definitely true, as related to the OP's question . . if the feeling of euphoria that he experienced was specific to the L5 . . or was it because it was his first time playing a "high end" (as he put it) guitar. As many on this thread have said, if all one needs from a guitar is to achieve that euphoric feeling that he did . . even if from a generic non branded and ugly guitar . . then spending the money for an L5 is not the way to go. But, what we "worshipers" of the L5 are saying is . . it still wouldn't be an l5. For, only an L5 . . is an L5. But, what's not true, is that this would alway be the effect of playing something new/different from what you have". What if the OP always had the L5 he experienced . . and the new/different guitar was thr D'A EX-SS? Would it be safe to assume that he wouldn't have come away with the sames experience? I think it would be.

How's this for pertinent statements? "The only thing better than a bad L5 . . is a good L5." "Likewise, the only thing better than a good L5 . . is a great L5." Yeah . . I like that!! I think I'll roll with that going forward in these discussions . . because, I'm quite sure they'll continue to come up.

I guess I would just push back at the idea that the L5 is _the_ ne plus ultra of jazz guitars. It certainly is _one_ of the great ones, and I agree that it's the perfect expression of a certain visual aesthetic. But tons of great music has been made on other instruments, and tons of people have walked away from L5's for other guitars. Could I imagine an L5-owner flipping over an EX SS (or any number of less expensive or plainer instruments)? Sure.

John