DPA d:vote 4099 Guitar Microphone

[KirkP]

Since you are using the Bose L1, you should check Bose Forums for advice unique to that system.
For example:
http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php?...rument_Pickups
http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...421#5381096421

I think they recommend against using microphones with stringed instruments. It may be possible at low volumes but will be a challenge.

[Spook410]

Since you are using the Bose L1, you should check Bose Forums for advice unique to that system.
For example:
Feedback / Microphone - Bose L1 Encyclopedia FAQ & Wiki
Feedback? - Topic

I think they recommend against using microphones with stringed instruments. It may be possible at low volumes but will be a challenge.

One link describes how a Bose is less prone to feedback. The other describes techniques to minimize feedback with a vocal setup. Are there any links that discuss microphones and stringed instruments in a setup like a DPA 4099 or anything to do with achieving reasonable volume levels in this sort of setup?

There are lots of folks over on the Acoustic Guitar Forum that use this mic successfully with all sorts of systems including Bose. I believe that once the OP gets it set up properly, it will work just fine even at moderate sound levels.

[KirkP]

...I believe that once the OP gets it set up properly, it will work just fine even at moderate sound levels.

I might have seemed overly pessimistic. But the Bose L1 puts speakers behind the performer facing the microphone, so it's best to follow feedback avoidance procedures developed for that type of system.

[Frank67]

Many thanks everybody! This has all been very helpful!

Spook410: I stand corrected - you are right of course, the AER has 48V phantom power in channel 2 and it works just fine. If I plug in directly and place the amp appropriately the volume i get before fedback is not bad, still not very loud, but a good start. Together with a bit of the magnetic pickup in channel 1 that would be enough for a small gig I guess. Taking the line out of the AER into the Bose also makes the feedback issues I have sith the Bose less accute (you are right of course that the tonematch also powers the mic - but that had more feedback issues). But I think that using the AER as a monitor and sitting behind the Bose would probably work in a life situation.

now I am experimenting what the nicest recording tone is and hopefully can record a little piece I am working on presently.

Many thanks again and happy holidays!

[redwater]

Try the Schatten Archtop Pickup and your problem is solved.

The micing drove me crazy, because of feedback squeal.
Eventually I tried the Schatten - believe it or not, on stage you won`t notice a difference between the Schatten and a Mic.
It actually sonds like a condenser mic.

http://schattendesign.com/archtop.htm

[disco~juice]

Try the Schatten Archtop Pickup and your problem is solved.

The micing drove me crazy, because of feedback squeal.
Eventually I tried the Schatten - believe it or not, on stage you won`t notice a difference between the Schatten and a Mic.
It actually sonds like a condenser mic.

http://schattendesign.com/archtop.htm

Nice solution.

Did you installed the unit on your existing bridge or you changed the whole bridge that come with the pickup?
I'm asking because this sounds really interesting as long as you don't have to change the bridge.

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is a great read, but.... I cant help but find how ironic it is that so much more electronics is apparently needed for an acoustic guitar than an electric.

[Frank67]

Try the Schatten Archtop Pickup and your problem is solved.

The micing drove me crazy, because of feedback squeal.
Eventually I tried the Schatten - believe it or not, on stage you won`t notice a difference between the Schatten and a Mic.
It actually sonds like a condenser mic.

http://schattendesign.com/archtop.htm

Thank you for this suggestion! I am afraid that i did try this a while back on one of my first jazz guitars. At that time I had a hole drilled into the guitar to accomodate the Schatten output. The pickup system worked as advertised and the sound was quite good - better than most piezos - BUT, I really did not like the bridge that came with it. I felt it ruined the electric sound of the guitar. I eventually gave up on it and went back to a TOM bridge that I liked much better - just a personal experience, don't want to blame the Schatten design. Feedback wise it was really good.

[Frank67]

This is a great read, but.... I cant help but find how ironic it is that so much more electronics is apparently needed for an acoustic guitar than an electric.

Ha ha, how true! I guess I went over the top. Simplifying as suggested by several people here already helped.

[RyanM]

This is a great read, but.... I cant help but find how ironic it is that so much more electronics is apparently needed for an acoustic guitar than an electric.

Of course, that's why electric guitars were invented in the first place.

[disco~juice]

Thank you for this suggestion! I am afraid that i did try this a while back on one of my first jazz guitars. At that time I had a hole drilled into the guitar to accomodate the Schatten output. The pickup system worked as advertised and the sound was quite good - better than most piezos - BUT, I really did not like the bridge that came with it. I felt it ruined the electric sound of the guitar. I eventually gave up on it and went back to a TOM bridge that I liked much better - just a personal experience, don't want to blame the Schatten design. Feedback wise it was really good.

I like the solution too but there is not a chance I'm changing my nice ebony bridge for this "plastic" thing.

[redwater]

I like the solution too but there is not a chance I'm changing my nice ebony bridge for this "plastic" thing.

My Luthier made a custom Bridge for the Schatten Pickup, because I didn`t like the bridge that came with it too.
Now I have a nice Ebony socket and on top the Schatten Bridge and between these two the Sensor (snug fitted).

For me, it is the best compromise for my carved Archtop. It sounds so natural.

[Frank67]

Here is a little recording of the tune I am working on. There are multiple issues with the playing but maybe one can catch a glimpse of the sound that one is getting.

After some trials I like it best by going dpa mic->AER channel 2->Bose ToneMatch->Focusrite Audio Interface->Garageband.

Here is how the mic was attached - not optimal - I am waiting for the cello clamp to attach it better to the tailpiece.



There is a tad of compression added in the ToneMatch, but nothing else. The backing track is a BiaB realtrack.

Many thanks to everybody!

[destinytot]

This is a great read, but.... I cant help but find how ironic it is that so much more electronics is apparently needed for an acoustic guitar than an electric.

Innit?!

[KirkP]

This is a great read, but.... I cant help but find how ironic it is that so much more electronics is apparently needed for an acoustic guitar than an electric.

Once you amplify it, whether it's with a piezo, coil of wire or mic, you no longer have an acoustic instrument. Like it ore not, amplification system is part of the instrument. :-)

[destinytot]

Once you amplify it, whether it's with a piezo, coil of wire or mic, you no longer have an acoustic instrument. Like it ore not, amplification system is part of the instrument. :-)

Sure - but swing's the thing: "Electrified rhythm guitar is rarely successful if at all, particularly when we mean rhythm in the accepted swing era sense, that is strumming chords in a 4/4 time. When the production of the beat becomes too easy, when there is no resistance, then there's no bite, no incisiveness, and usually NO SWING." (Marty Grosz, 1996)

[mr. beaumont]

Here is a little recording of the tune I am working on. There are multiple issues with the playing but maybe one can catch a glimpse of the sound that one is getting.

After some trials I like it best by going dpa mic->AER channel 2->Bose ToneMatch->Focusrite Audio Interface->Garageband.

Here is how the mic was attached - not optimal - I am waiting for the cello clamp to attach it better to the tailpiece.



There is a tad of compression added in the ToneMatch, but nothing else. The backing track is a BiaB realtrack.

Many thanks to everybody!

I liked that sound a whole lot.

[D.G.]

Sure - but swing's the thing: "Electrified rhythm guitar is rarely successful if at all, particularly when we mean rhythm in the accepted swing era sense, that is strumming chords in a 4/4 time. When the production of the beat becomes too easy, when there is no resistance, then there's no bite, no incisiveness, and usually NO SWING." (Marty Grosz, 1996)

I find my Eastman 403 with pRail in the p90 setting through either a Princeton RI or Quilter MicroPro gives a pretty good swing rhythm sound. Ya gotta keep the guitar's controls wide open though. And of course, you need to play the rhythm right. I use either Freddie Green 4-to-the-floor downstrokes (slower tunes and ballads) or gyspy le pompe.

That said, I do tend to prefer my gypsy guitar for rhythm.

[destinytot]

There are many players around who make inspiring use of the electrified guitar for rhythm. (I'm particularly inspired by Matt Munisteri.)

It's what Marty says about 'resistance' that really speaks to me. I think of it as equivalent to the brass player's embouchure. - for chords, not single notes...unless we're talking about Freddie's single notes: "With heavy gauge bronze strings and a very high action any note I played on the 4th string was joined by sympathetic harmonics and/or by the natural harmonics (particularly those at the 5th, 7th, 9th and 12th frets) of the other deadened strings. The "one-note chord" it is. Thank you Freddie for showing us how to do it right." (James Chirillo)

'My other guitar's a decent archtop', and perhaps I'll try that 'very high action' one day - sans p/u, of course!

[Frank67]

I liked that sound a whole lot.

Thank you Jeff! I am fairly happy with the recorded sound as it is ... I obviously have a lot of work to do (and enjoy it) ... But the sound is not to be blamed :-)

[Chazmo]

I agree with destinytot that Matt Munisteri does a great job on rhythm with an electric guitar. I have seen him a couple of times using an old Gibson non-cutaway with a P-90--an ES 150 or 125? Bucky and John Pizzarelli are both great rhythm players. Of course, they use acoustic archtops with floating pickups.

[Frank67]

sorry to revive that ... I have been playing a bit more with the recording. Here is a recording of my Gypsy Guitar using the dpa mic and the same recording chain guitar -> mic -> AER compact xl -> Bose ToneMatch -> Focusrite Audio Interface -> Garageband. The Gypsy guitar is much louder than the golden eagle arch top. I attached the mic in the cutaway and pointed it towards the sound hole - no trouble whatsoever. The signal was strong and clear and feedback issues were manageable. I even had to take the guitar quite a bit back in the mix since the signal was so strong - I guess it attests to how amazingly loud Macaferri type guitars are.

I quite like the recorded sound (I added a bit of compression and a tiny bit of reverb with Garageband). The dpa mic is really the first device that I had that let me record the natural sound of the guitar without compromises. I have also been in touch with the dpa people (very friendly and responsive). I hope they come up with an archtop tailpiece clamp. That should be easy and a big improvement over that somewhat delicate clamp that they use now for steel string guitars.

(hope you don't mind the playing mistakes - I was going for "progress not perfection")

[nickyboy]

I appreciate that it's a louder, very different type of guitar...but when I was gigging my National style 1.5 I used a neumann km184 condenser mic. Expensive, but very good indeed. Sound engineers always seemed relieved when they saw my mic.
It also sounded great with a flattop.
I found that I could use it as a volume control just by moving back and forth - also find cool tones by it's proximity to the bridge/neck.

[destinytot]

sorry to revive that ... I have been playing a bit more with the recording. Here is a recording of my Gypsy Guitar using the dpa mic and the same recording chain guitar -> mic -> AER compact xl -> Bose ToneMatch -> Focusrite Audio Interface -> Garageband. The Gypsy guitar is much louder than the golden eagle arch top. I attached the mic in the cutaway and pointed it towards the sound hole - no trouble whatsoever. The signal was strong and clear and feedback issues were manageable. I even had to take the guitar quite a bit back in the mix since the signal was so strong - I guess it attests to how amazingly loud Macaferri type guitars are.

I quite like the recorded sound (I added a bit of compression and a tiny bit of reverb with Garageband). The dpa mic is really the first device that I had that let me record the natural sound of the guitar without compromises. I have also been in touch with the dpa people (very friendly and responsive). I hope they come up with an archtop tailpiece clamp. That should be easy and a big improvement over that somewhat delicate clamp that they use now for steel string guitars.

(hope you don't mind the playing mistakes - I was going for "progress not perfection")

I enjoyed that - thanks!

[stringmann]

YT popped a james taylor concert song up just now and it seems he used a dpa mic on his acoustic? Per our friend Jonathan Stout, i have mounted one on the tailpiece of an L5 with limited success. I wonder how this is affixed---perhaps it's a model they make?
You can see it at 4:29 in this video (wouldn't let me past the picture)