Jazz tone: Amp vs Guitar

[eduardosanz]

Hello, I own a humble Ibanez AS73, played through an equally humble Fender Mustang I. I can get a decent tone out of it (to my ears), but definetely not the dark jazz tone I like and look for.

I am thinking in upgrading my equipment, but I can not upgrade both parts at a time. So, I am wondering which would be the "fastest" way to get close to tha sound: buying a new guitar and play through the Mustang, or buying a new amp and play the Ibanez through it. (I am tending towards this last option, as I think is gonna be cheaper to buy a nice amp for a nice price than a nice guitar...)

And to further complicate the equation: what about pickups?

So what do you think is more important to achieve the stereotypical jazz tone (amplified): the amp, the pickup or the guitar?


Thanks for your comments.

PS: Any sugestions regarding pickups for the neck of my AS73 or amps are welcome too.

[Jabberwocky]

Change the pickups. And are you using flats?

Go into FUSE and try futzing around with the settings.

[marcwhy]

Like with anything, what is your budget? New amps run from $300 to $3000, and guitars, of course, can go to $30,000. Any ideas of what kind of "vibe" you like -- tube, solid state, "fender," Jim Hall, Scofield, etc. etc.?

Regarding pickups, I'm enjoying the humbuckers on my jazz guitar from: ROADHOUSE PICKUPS Nice guy, great prices for a custom pickup.

Enjoy the hunt.

[soto]

I would first experiment with different pickup heights / tone control positions. Then strings and picks would be the cheapest and easiest components to experiment with.

[jorgemg1984]

I would say amp. As I see it it's amp - guitar - pick - speaker - pickup.

[Klatu]

Jorge's on the money. As for all guitar tones, I believe that the amp has the greatest influence over tone followed by the guitar .

Also, don't be afraid to experiment with extreme settings on your amp, as they may result in the elusive tone you seek. For example, there was a thread floating around about achieving Grant Green's tone. One of the posters who brought some of the wisest insight encouraged players to max out their mids while lowering the treble and bass knobs almost to 0.

For most players, including myself, the results were surprisingly positive. I have a semi hollow guitar that I had trouble dialing in until I tried that unusual setting that turned out to be perfect.

Good luck.

[TH]

I'm probably way off on this one but my experience has been most satisfying in changing pickups and strings. Your guitar is actually quite a decent instrument and one you can go quite far on if you had a sound and feel that inspired you. After changing pickups to Duncan 59's and working with a heavier gauge, I always find the instrument gets a richer rounder sound and the notes I play translate to a sound I can be inspired by, play better with and improve my own technique (also a part of getting a satisfying darker sound) with.
And yes, the amp is a big part of things too, don't get me wrong, but for me, as a player, a comfortable and responsive instrument is where the sound comes from. I have a cheap little Ibanez amp that is a far cry from a Matchless, but I make it work really well with a good guitar w/ good pickups.
David

[Bebop Tom]

Here is my two cents after playing jazz guitar for almost 40 years and playing guitars that range from inappropriate rock oriented solidbodies to high end luthier-built archtop electrics. You may never get a good tone through a bad/inappropriate amp even if you use a $20K archtop, but an inexpensive guitar can sound fine through a great sounding amp. I can play all my hollowbody humbucker-equipped jazz guitars through the same amp and get them to sound very similar. If I play one of those guitars through my three different amps (Polytone, Twin Reverb, Ampeg Gemini), the guitar will sound very different through each. Pickups are a crap shoot and can get expensive if you have to pay someone to install them. I am completely unfamiliar with the Mustang amp, but if it is incapable of the dark jazz tone you desire, I would look for a used Polytone Mini Brute that you may be able to find for a few hundred dollars. Also, try medium flatwound strings if you like that traditional dark tone. Thin roundwounds are not the classic dark jazz guitar sound, although some use them effectively. I agree with Jorge's priorities for tone, except I would list "pick" last since many great jazz guitarists have used cheap medium or even thin picks and sound great. Regarding pickups, I have tried Duncan '59s and disliked them, feeling they were too bright with no midrange. I swapped them for Duncan Antiquities. So you can see, pickups are very subjective and you will not know what you have tonewise until you have spent the money and had them installed. With amps you can simply bring your guitar to a store and plug in. So put on some flatwounds (if you do not have them on now) and bring that guitar to a place that has some good amps to try. Best of luck.

[mangotango]

As an owner of an Ibanez AS73 I would say...start with strings. I'd recommend Newtone Archtops.

When I decided to play Jazz to the exclusion (almost) of other musics, I went from a semi-acoustic with D'Addario roundwounds (0.10") to my Epi Joe Pass, same strings. I improved my jazz sound by going to Rotosound flats (0.12")on the same guitar, and then MUCH further still by changing to TI Swings (also flats) (.012"). The next step up was to my current guitar (Vestax D'Angelio NYL-5), which had D'Addario Chromes (0.11") on it when I tried it. However, as soon as I got it home, I replaced those with the TI Swings and the step-up in sound was again very obvious.

Of late, I've gone to the Newtone Archtops on my main guitar; nails that warm, dark sound without a problem, but more able to deal with bright, more acoustic tones as well than flats.

If you want bang for the buck, then for the most part, a change in strings has more effect than pretty much anything else, for me at least. It's not irreversible and won't cost you a fortune either.

[rsclosson]

I had an AS-93; one of the older models without a pickguard and pre super-58 pickups. Didn't change a thing but the strings. Flatwound 12s and tweaking the amp got me a nice smokey fat jazz sound. As others have said, start with the least expensive things and work your way up in price from there.

Just my $0.02

[pingu]

my tuppence worth

1 Strings ! ........ put on zee Jazz Strings ....... eg TI jazz swing 13s
you'll adjust quite quickly

(2 if you want still more 'body' to the sound ..... get an archtop)

3 Technique practice ......... picking clean

4 then Amps

in other words , get the sound right at source

[Bikewer]

I'm on a pretty limited budget myself. I've got the same guitar, the "natural" finish, and I set it up with D'Addario flatwounds.
I had a little practice amp, a 15--watt Behringer I'd actually bought for my cigar-box guitars. (I build the things) Not very satisfying.

So I just bought a Roland Cube 40 and I'm quite happy with the overall sound of the rig. I play fingerstyle, and the flatwounds work very well with no noticeable nail wear.

[vintagelove]

If you are looking for the dark jazz sound, the amp is very important. Almost anything plugged into an older polytone will do. IMO, where the guitar becomes a much bigger factor is if your going for that nice "acoustic archtop" sound. In that case, a fine instrument with a number of fender tube amps will get the job done.

With a polytone and a blackface super reverb, I could be set forever with jazz amps.

[eduardosanz]

Thankyou for all your good advices.

I do play with D´Addario flat (chromes) 12, and fingerstyle, so I am afraid that part of the equation is already done...

Are the new Polytones Mini Brute equal to the old ones in terms of tone?

[zigzag]

The most effective single change you can make to do what you want is to install a wooden bridge.

[kamlapati]

I conclude from all the good advice above that there may be more than one way to get great tone!

[vintagelove]

Are the new Polytones Mini Brute equal to the old ones in terms of tone?

IME, if your getting a polytone, find the older model with the diamond tolex.

Good luck.

[docbop]

IME, if your getting a polytone, find the older model with the diamond tolex.

Good luck.

Is Polytone still in business all I ever see is used ones anymore.

[Cunamara]

There's a lot of ways to address this.

First is that there are many "jazz sounds" when you listen to different guitarists. Compare Jim Hall, Grant Green, Tal Farlow, Wes Montgomery, Peter Bernstein, Ed Bickert, Tuck Andress, Johnny Smith just to name a few that fall across the spectrum. And listen to a few albums by those guys and you'll notice their sound changes from one recording to the next. You'll never get Jim Hall's tone or Grant Green's or Wes's or Pete's, of course. You'll get your sound.

Second, how you pick changes the tone. I play fingerstyle at times and while doing that really cannot get the sort of tone like Jim Hall. I can get that sort of sound with a pick on the same guitar without changing any settings. Experiment with playing unamplified and try picking in different places on the string, with different picks, with long vs. short nails, etc. With fingerstyle on steel strings I have found I prefer to keep my nails quite short and I bought one of those nail polishing things with four grades of abrasive to get the edges of my nails as smooth as I can. That really helped with my sound.

Third, you can affect the sound with simple, inexpensive to free changes to the guitar. Different strings, raising or lowering the pickup, exploiting the interaction between the volume and tone pots, etc. I find that nickel strings have a mellower, darker tone. If your flats are D'Addario Chromes, you might try Pyramid or Tomastik-Infeld strings. I have used Chromes for years because they are cheap and readily available, but currently have TI Bebops (BB113) on my archtop with good results and Pyramid nickel roundwounds (the "Superior Quality" set) on my Tele. This is my first set using a plain G string and I have been really, really pleased with the sound I am getting (th eset comes with both a wound and plain G and I gave the latter a shot; glad I did!).

You can replace pickups, of course, but the Ibanez pickups are already pretty good. If you replace them then IMHO I would suggest low to medium output pickup with alnico magnets; there are a lot of these out there. The Gibson Classic 57, the Dimarzio 36th Anniversary and the Seymore Duncan Seth Lover pickups are good starting points and easily found. The AS-73 is a nice instrument for jazz. It is a semi-hollow guitar and there are typical tonal characteristics for these. If you are really looking for an archtop type sound like an ES-175 or an L-5, the AS-73 isn't going to get you all the way to that. But there are great tones to be had with semi-hollow guitars- listen to Emily Remler, Ben Monder (I won't recommend Grant Green for this because I don't like his tone).

As for amps, there are basically two schools of thought. The first is an amp/speaker combination that basically just makes your guitar louder with little alteration to the sound. The second is an amp/speaker with it's own distinct tonal qualities such as Fender (tweed, brownface, blackface, silverface, etc., each of which has a characteristic voice). I use both- I have an Acoustic Image Clarus 2r with a Raezer's Edge 12" cab which imparts little character to the sound of the guitar. I also have a clone of a Fender tweed Deluxe (5E3 circuit) built as a head through the same cab. The difference is quite striking; you can readily find audio examples online to hear on YouTube etc. I go back and forth on which one I prefer, as well as going back and forth between the archtop and the Tele.

Your Mustang amp has, I think , a fair amount of editability using the FUSE software and a USB connection to a laptop. I have never tried this stuff, but I have seen that there are recipes out on the web that you can use to tailor your sound in certain directions. Since you already have it, I would start with that rather than forking out cash for a new amp. If you really really want the almost stereotypical jazz guitar sound, you probably ultimately want an ES-175 and an older Polytone Mini Brute II. But I am convinced you can get a great sound with the equipment you already own.

[vintagelove]

Is Polytone still in business all I ever see is used ones anymore.

Last I heard a dealer for them posted online saying NOT to send them money. He placed/payed for an order of like 8 and received 1. So, I wouldn't take a chance.

Beside, you can get the one with the classic circuit, then have it completely rebuilt for less than the cost of the modern competition.


PS, FWIW I prefer the 15inch MBIV, but the 12 is great too.

[kamlapati]

Are the new Polytones Mini Brute equal to the old ones in terms of tone?

I know a lot of folks here swear by the old ones, but mine is more recent and it gets compliments from everyone who plays it. I got mine used at a local guitar store. It's some of the best money I ever spent on guitar gear.

[vintagelove]

I know a lot of folks here swear by the old ones, but mine is more recent and it gets compliments from everyone who plays it. I got mine used at a local guitar store. It's some of the best money I ever spent on guitar gear.

For sure you can get some good sounds with them. Someone from this site has a youtube video (which most of us have probably watched..... 10x), L5 vs ES175. Done with a modern polytone, sounds pretty good.

[mr quick]

Guitar is what makes the difference. My epi dot and ibby af75 aren't comparable at all, even through the same amp with the same settings

[GNAPPI]

I also own an AS73 and sure, you "can" get good tone from it by diddling with an amp or pedal, but the ACH pups do not help, not at all. So can you work with the amp and get some help? sure but ultimately the pups are in this case a HUGE factor... IMO that is.

As an analogy... A crap car engine that can accelerate fast only downhill is worthless if you need acceleration so saying only drive downhill to mask the problem is as silly as saying the amp will solve the problem :-)

Of my three Ibanez two have S58's and the difference between them and the ACH tone is huge. So, when I can getaroundtoit... I bought a Schaller for the bridge and a Gibson P94 for the neck.

[Greentone]

I think Polytone went dormant when Tommy Gumina died a couple of years ago. The company was his baby from its inception in 1968.

As far as the tone of the different vintage Polytone amps goes, I like them all but find that the newer ones, i.e., the ones with the Sonic control, just do not sound as good as the ones made from the 1990s back. The amps made from the 1970s-1980s sound particularly nice. The Baby Brute (8" speaker), Teeny Brute (10" speaker), MiniBrute I, II (12" speaker), and MiniBrute III, IV, V (15" speaker) all sound great. Personally, my rank ordering would run in that order of preference from best (Baby Brute) to least preferred (MiniBrute V). There is something about the Baby Brute that is just about perfect for the response of a jazz guitar. People who own one seldom part with them.