Inexpensive Archtop recommendation, PM2 or AR371CE

**seaguitar** · 11-29-2014, 07:57 PM

I love the sound of the Gibson ES 175 but it's price is beyond what I'd like to spend right now although it's been a guitar I've been wanting to acquire for some time, but besides the cost, there is also complexity in choosing one with the right year, woods etc without playing one and it's hard to find one locally. I've been reading stuff on this forum, looking at youtube videos etc. I ruled out the Epiphone Es 175 premium because in all the videos I've seen of it it sounds much more like an acoustic rather than the kind of sounds that Pat Metheny, Jim Hall, Wes etc used to get and even with the bridge pickup it sounds more like a blues guitar than the sounds I mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong here - I've not been able to try one out. So I've narrowed my choice to the Ibanez PM2 or the Eastman AR371CE and leaning towards the PM2. To my ears these seem to come closer to that sounds I mentioned. I was wondering if anyone had recommendations in this vein. Much appreciate any input!

Thanks

**Longways to Go** · 11-30-2014, 11:28 AM

I have a Epi ES175 Premium & an AR371. I don't have a Pat Metheny, but I do have an Ibanez AFJ85. All are well built, good playing guitars. I don't think you will go wrong on your choice. Here's my experience:

IMO, the Epi ES175 is the one that delivers the Jim Hall tone. I'd love to see a comparison between the Epiphone Premium & a true Gibson -- IMO the Epi gets you pretty far toward a traditional ES175 sound. I love it.

The AR371 is a much more resonant, acoustic sounding guitar. Really nice in it's own right, but different. I'd want to try before I buy on an Eastman . . .I was lucky to have the chance to try a few different AR371 before choosing one. Actually, I had written off AR371's because the first couple to come through town were disappointing. The one I got is head & shoulders above the others soundwise. Eastmans can be great, but they are somewhat hit or miss.

I'm sure the Pat Metheny is a great guitar. I like Ibanez, but I haven't found one with tone magic yet. Super playability, fit & finish for sure, but somehow bland. Yet I am curious about the new cheaper Schofield model coming out . . . My Ibanez is my "gotta play outside but it might rain" guitar!

Hope that helps. All good choices really

**Rob MacKillop** · 11-30-2014, 11:37 AM

I love my PM2. I did this recording the day after getting it home. In it I play the same piece twice, first acoustic, then electric.

But a short while after I decided to experiment with a different neck pickup, more out of curiosity than anything else. I like the sound of single-coil pickups, so installed a Harmonic Design Z90, and I love that sound too:

I hope these help you, one way or another.

Overall I'd say the guitar is superbly put together, very easy to get around on, almost effortless. I'm not sure which pickup I prefer, but the Z90 is still on it.

The amp in both cases was the Yamaha THR 5.

**Minte** · 11-30-2014, 12:31 PM

I enjoyed your recordings, Rob. Very nice.

**M-ster** · 11-30-2014, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop

... I like the sound of single-coil pickups, so installed a Harmonic Design Z90, and I love that sound too ...

The Z90 sounds great, Rob!

**seaguitar** · 11-30-2014, 01:28 PM

Thanks for the input Longways! -- Have you seen a recording of the Epi 175 that shows this? Please don't get me wrong - I don't doubt you but would love to see it perform so it'll help in evaluating -- all the videos I saw made it sound like an acoustic/blues guitar. Obviously then the choice would be between the PM2 and Epi.

**seaguitar** · 11-30-2014, 01:30 PM

Thanks Rob! Beautiful sound and music. I had seen your recordings already and they were instrumental in my leaning towards the PM2. BTW, did you select from a bunch of PM2s and select that one in particular or just order one and that's what you got? I've heard they are pretty consistent. They are unavailable so I'd have to put one on order, not much chance of trying one out right now.

I have to say, to my ears I actually prefer the super 58, but the Z90 sounds great too and I'd be happy with either.

**Rob MacKillop** · 11-30-2014, 01:59 PM

I read a review - I can't remember where - and it seemed just what I was looking for. So I asked my local guitar shop in Edinburgh, called Guitar Guitar, to get one in. I went a few days later and played it. They also had other Ibanez guitars around the same price, but the PM2 seemed better-made than all of them.

On the negative side, I find it a bit yellow. I'd rather a nicer blonde finish. But that's the only negative I can think of.

The neck is - like all Ibanez archtops - a little on the thin/narrow side, but I got used to it within five minutes.

If the consistency is as you think, there should be no worries. Nice case too. Good luck!

**Longways to Go** · 11-30-2014, 02:13 PM

Sorry I haven't watched the Epi ES175 Premium videos so I can't comment. I discovered this model last summer at GC -- didn't know what it was, but I liked it, plugged it in & got instantly good jazz tone. No way I wasn't going to take one home! I'd post clips, but I'm terrible at the whole recording/tech stuff (and lazy too!)

Rob's videos with the PM2 sound great. I'm tempted to try a higher level Ibanez, but I'd really want to do a test drive first. FWIW, I don't think there's a wrong choice here. You'll get a very capable jazz guitar whatever you choose.

**seaguitar** · 11-30-2014, 02:34 PM

Well, it's funny but just as I was responding you guys, guitar center in Portsmouth ( a different part of the country from where I am ) responded with photos of a used PM2 I'd queried about and it looks pristine. So I just bought it for 749$ shipped and I can try it out and drop it off at my local store if I don't like it.

Rob - do you have the 2014 model? Was the stock one the s-58N pick up? That's what the shop guy said this has. I thought I'd read online they had changed pickups on the PM2 along the way so wanted to make sure.

**seaguitar** · 11-30-2014, 02:35 PM

No problem Longways - I'll see if I Can find one to try out somewhere - definitely want to give it a try if I Can.

**Rob MacKillop** · 11-30-2014, 03:18 PM

Congratulations! Mine was one of the first batch, so the first pickup. I didn't know they changed the pickup later.

**seaguitar** · 11-30-2014, 03:20 PM

Thanks! - and what strings do you use Rob?

**Rob MacKillop** · 11-30-2014, 03:50 PM

Thomastik Infeld flat wounds, 12s.

**Para** · 11-30-2014, 04:11 PM

Should have a Super 58 Custom.

**Beanctr** · 12-01-2014, 04:04 PM

I have both the ES-175 Premium and the PM2. I like them both. I would say the PM2 is more like an electric guitar than the 175. The PM2 is smaller and thinner than the 175, also the neck is thicker than the 175. The PM2 has a gloss finish and a very nice neck/fingerboard. They don't call it an "Artstar" as opposed to a "Artcore" but they say the neck has the "Artstar" treatment.

I changed the pickup to a Gibson 490r to try to get it to sound like my ES-165 (it didn't) I probably should have given the 58 a liitle more time. I really didn't like the pickup on the 2006 AS83 I recently aquired but i don't think that was a super 58. I don't remember hating the super 58 a year ago when i got the guitar.

rick

**seaguitar** · 12-01-2014, 08:10 PM

Thanks Beanctr - what do you mean "more like an electric guitar" ? Is the PM2 substantially different or harder to play than the 175?

**Rob MacKillop** · 12-02-2014, 03:20 AM

Not in my experience...

**Beanctr** · 12-02-2014, 11:42 AM

I would say the PM2 may be a little easier to play. Rick

**EriktK** · 12-03-2014, 06:27 PM

I play the Epiphone ES-175. It's from 2009, I think. It is a great guitar. I once owned the PM100 and recently looked at the PM2 but I wouldn't like to go on stage with Pat Metheny name on my guitar...ha, ha. The PM100 was a good guitar (and very expensive) but very much an electric guitar. I like the Epiphone ES-175 much better for it's warm, more woody sound.
I'll post some recordings of the ES 175 soon, so you can hear it.

My second tip is the Epiphone anniversary Sorrento. Thin, hollow but what a jazz guitar! You can't tell the difference between the Sorrento and a ES-175, at all. Really a joy to play. Live ánd in the studio.

If anyone cares for a more transparent jazz sound, like Jim Hall, here is my tip:

More sound clips in my playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...xtPjtOiVfduv_D

Best,
Erik

**seaguitar** · 12-03-2014, 07:08 PM

Erik - thanks for the tips! I look forward to hearing clips on the ES175 premium. Believe it or not, I could not find a single one on youtube. There are ones of the older ES175s but the new one has different pickup and constructed in a more classic manner so I was hoping to hear one played and see how it sounded in comparison with the "real" ES175

**Max405** · 12-05-2014, 10:05 AM

I owned an AR371 and I must say it was a very lively guitar. Extremely lightweight, yet not Chin-sey..
Great guitar for sure.
Another reason to buy an Eastman is there National Sales rep, Mark Herring. Mark is one of the coolest, nicest people you will ever meet. He LISTENS to people and has a straight line to the factory. He makes recommendations to the factory and they listen. That's one of the reasons they are so good.

Why don't you save your sheckles and wait for the right deal on a Herb Ellis 165? They tend to be more affordable than the 175's and are every bit the real thing for sure.

When you play the Gibsons, something special happens that doesn't happen with any other guitar. You are playing the standard. The benchmark. And I personally think something connects your soul to the Guitar. When I play solo Chord Melody with a Gibson I feel like there is a band inside the box that enhances my playing. It sounds and feels stable and just right. Or maybe its the remnants of a mushroom I chewed in the late 70's...

Whatever you do, have fun. That's what this is all about. Never lose that. Or else you miss out on the best part of the hobby. The fun.

Joe D

**Wes Fan** · 12-05-2014, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

Another reason to buy an Eastman is there National Sales rep, Mark Herring. Mark is one of the coolest, nicest people you will ever meet. He LISTENS to people and has a straight line to the factory. He makes recommendations to the factory and they listen. That's one of the reasons they are so good.

And he's also not a bad musician and singer

:

**EriktK** · 12-06-2014, 02:35 PM

Hi,
As promissed, a few random clips I did on the 2009 Epiphone ES-175 in the past year. I just put some in this video to get an idea of the instrument as a jazz guitar. I own a lot of archtop guitars and owned and played a lot in the past. This one I really love. Just as good as the G (IMO). By the way: It is no ferry tale that removing the hard lacquer from these guitars improves the sound. It really became a better guitsr (in sound and in looks).

Gr Erik
http://youtu.be/qrFuEKjMaIU

**seaguitar** · 12-06-2014, 07:24 PM

Thanks for the tips Joe. I'm not an advanced jazz player and thus I think I will treat the Gibson as a goal to shoot towards and get one as a gift to myself when I reach a certain level. However, I am an advanced player in another style and know a bit about guitars and agree that the Gibsons seems to have a certain "something". It's one reason why the 175 appeals to me.