Fender Deluxe Reverb Headroom/Volume

[hans halmackenreuter]

There is one thing I don't understand! Why is the guitar amp not miced up? Or is it miced up?
I ask because the sax player is miced up and that is the point where I would also wanted to be miced up, since the sound in the mix must be awful.

I was going to make the same sugguestion as Jeff with the BF Super Reverb, because 45w into 4 speakers in an open back can hang up with a organ.

[David B]

There is a mic in front of the amp in the original video.

[jzucker]

Baloney. HRD's have plenty of headroom. I'm not sure what speaker your listening through, but he's not distorting. His tone is just muddy. That could be the recording.

Listen again. If you can't hear the distortion at 4:09 i'm not sure what to say. I prefer humus to baloney anyway

[hans halmackenreuter]

I was just trying to say that this amp would be a good match! But anyway, if you play with an organ player, who is willing to carry his b3 + amp, than somebody is going to need a car anyway. But I would like to know if people are really using big organs that much or do many clubs provide them in the US? Because I see them very rarely. Most of the time I see player using Keyboards like the red nordclavier for example in order to get an organ sound.

[Jazz_175]

I have experience with a Deluxe Reverb in a context of a quartet with sax or piano.
I usually have volume at 3-4 and use a 335 and a booster in front.
The sound is usually at the edge of breakup. In some cases real distortion when I dig in too hard with chords.
Last week I played in a very large venue with no microphone in front.
It was OK, but a Twin Reverb would have been better.

[jzucker]

I was just trying to say that this amp would be a good match! But anyway, if you play with an organ player, who is willing to carry his b3 + amp, than somebody is going to need a car anyway. But I would like to know if people are really using big organs that much or do many clubs provide them in the US? Because I see them very rarely. Most of the time I see player using Keyboards like the red nordclavier for example in order to get an organ sound.

I agree with you. I think in most cases a vibrolux reverb is probably the right size amp for most gigs. Not quite enough headroom for louder gigs. It's about the same power as the HRD but has a bit more clean headroom and the 2x10 speakers produce more usable volume. Unfortunately, it's ridiculously heavy to carry to a gig.

I'm not sure how organ players are transporting their stuff these days. Most of the guys I see are using synth keyboards instead.

[monkmiles]

I don't think a Deluxe Reverb (or a Princeton) is loud enough for ANY gig. But it certainly works well in SOME gigs.

I don't mind a little grit myself, so I like this tone. I definitely hear breakup in his solo section around the ~4min mark. There's nothing wrong with a small amount of grit in jazz to me. I like it, though many do avoid it like the plague. Though the breakup you get from tube amps sounds better to me than breakup from solid state amps (generally speaking).

It looks like the amp in this clip is miked. Is it possible he's playing through the channel of the Hot Rod Deluxe (that's what amp this is, right?) that you can dial in gain? Because if it's miked, headroom should become virtually a non-issue assuming there are monitors and whatnot.

My favorite local jazz organ trio is the Ken Clark Organ Trio, in which the guitarist (whom I used to take lessons from) uses a Vibrolux that rarely gets miked. They aren't national but do have a few recordings and have been gigging on/off for approximately 15 years.

Most of the straight jazz gigs in my area (greater Boston) seems to be lowish volume background type of gigs where volume is not so high and a Deluxe Reverb will sometimes cut it. Unless you're a big name and playing the Regatta Bar or Scullers in Cambridge or something (where Joey D, Pat Martino, etc play) where a Deluxe Reverb likely would not cut it unless it was miked properly I suppose.

As far as B3 player porting their gear... I have a jazz organ trio that hopes to start gigging locally this summer a little bit. The organist won't even consider using something like a Nord, he wants and has the real thing (2 A100s and a B3). He has a van with a ramp we will use along with dollys and whatnot. But it should prove to be interesting eitherway! It makes me feel like what's the big deal with a heavy guitar amp?! I'll be using my 2x10 Bandmaster combo for these gigs. But I do use my Princeton for rehearsals with no issue. Granted we are in a small room and not very loud. Also my Princeton has an efficient/loud 12" speaker and then I also use a 5751 preamp tube to very slightly reduce preamp gain (I put one in my Bandmaster too).

[wintermoon]

I don't think a Deluxe Reverb (or a Princeton) is loud enough for ANY gig. But it certainly works well in SOME gigs.

I don't mind a little grit myself, so I like this tone. I definitely hear breakup in his solo section around the ~4min mark. There's nothing wrong with a small amount of grit in jazz to me. I like it, though many do avoid it like the plague. Though the breakup you get from tube amps sounds better to me than breakup from solid state amps (generally speaking).

It looks like the amp in this clip is miked. Is it possible he's playing through the channel of the Hot Rod Deluxe (that's what amp this is, right?) that you can dial in gain? Because if it's miked, headroom should become virtually a non-issue assuming there are monitors and whatnot.

My favorite local jazz organ trio is the Ken Clark Organ Trio, in which the guitarist (whom I used to take lessons from) uses a Vibrolux that rarely gets miked. They aren't national but do have a few recordings and have been gigging on/off for approximately 15 years.

Most of the straight jazz gigs in my area (greater Boston) seems to be lowish volume background type of gigs where volume is not so high and a Deluxe Reverb will sometimes cut it. Unless you're a big name and playing the Regatta Bar or Scullers in Cambridge or something (where Joey D, Pat Martino, etc play) where a Deluxe Reverb likely would not cut it unless it was miked properly I suppose.

As far as B3 player porting their gear... I have a jazz organ trio that hopes to start gigging locally this summer a little bit. The organist won't even consider using something like a Nord, he wants and has the real thing (2 A100s and a B3). He has a van with a ramp we will use along with dollys and whatnot. But it should prove to be interesting eitherway! It makes me feel like what's the big deal with a heavy guitar amp?! I'll be using my 2x10 Bandmaster combo for these gigs. But I do use my Princeton for rehearsals with no issue. Granted we are in a small room and not very loud. Also my Princeton has an efficient/loud 12" speaker and then I also use a 5751 preamp tube to very slightly reduce preamp gain (I put one in my Bandmaster too).

since the vast majority of my gigs for the last 20 yrs have been organ gigs I always helped the organ player load and unload their B-3. it's not bad if you have 2 people , though I do know a few guys that can do it themselves.

[gggomez]

40 watts Hot Rod's are prone to distort, in an unpleasant way, at volume, highlighting that they are a relatively inexpensive set up, particularly when you factor in how many tricks they have.

18 watt Deluxe Reverb's play cleaner at a louder volume, in part as they are a higher quality set up. When they do overdrive it is sweet, not the horrible bass farting that a Hot Rod can spew out.

Generally I reck'n a Deluxe has a much sweeter top end and has a much better cut in a band situation than a HRD so you are less inclined to roll it off as much. You will note in this recording that often the guitar is not discernible, for mine it has too much bottom end for the mix and too much bottom end for the amp.

A pristine clean with the organ I don't think would be right, this guy's/this band's sound would be smokin like a Hot Barbeque if he had a Deluxe.

[Phil in London]

40 watts Hot Rod's are prone to distort, in an unpleasant way, at volume, highlighting that they are a relatively inexpensive set up, particularly when you factor in how many tricks they have.

18 watt Deluxe Reverb's play cleaner at a louder volume, in part as they are a higher quality set up. When they do overdrive it is sweet, not the horrible bass farting that a Hot Rod can spew out.

Generally I reck'n a Deluxe has a much sweeter top end and has a much better cut in a band situation than a HRD so you are less inclined to roll it off as much. You will note in this recording that often the guitar is not discernible, for mine it has too much bottom end for the mix and too much bottom end for the amp.

A pristine clean with the organ I don't think would be right, this guy's/this band's sound would be smokin like a Hot Barbeque if he had a Deluxe.

my 5c: I have recently compared a FHRD with FHRD GB. In essence, the GB version differs from the HRD by one tube, and choice of pine wood for the cabinet. But: the behaviour when loud is quite distinct, the GB can be very loud and still running clean. The HRD seems to be designed as a blues amp, customers seem to want that kind of overdrive in the clean channel.

[jzucker]

40 watts Hot Rod's are prone to distort, in an unpleasant way, at volume, highlighting that they are a relatively inexpensive set up, particularly when you factor in how many tricks they have.

18 watt Deluxe Reverb's play cleaner at a louder volume, in part as they are a higher quality set up. When they do overdrive it is sweet, not the horrible bass farting that a Hot Rod can spew out.

Generally I reck'n a Deluxe has a much sweeter top end and has a much better cut in a band situation than a HRD so you are less inclined to roll it off as much. You will note in this recording that often the guitar is not discernible, for mine it has too much bottom end for the mix and too much bottom end for the amp.

A pristine clean with the organ I don't think would be right, this guy's/this band's sound would be smokin like a Hot Barbeque if he had a Deluxe.

This "Guy" is Paul Bollenback, one of the best guitarists in NYC and has played with everybody and has owned and played with every amp imaginable from fender "the twin" to deluxe and vibrolux reverb to polytone, etc.

I can't agree that the deluxe reverb has more headroom than a HRD. Benson has been using an HRD for quite some time as do several other prominant jazz guitarists. I think local guitarist dan wilson is also using an HRD.

The deluxe reverb reissue is shrill IMO and the older ones are a pain to maintain which is why most of the NY jazz guitarists have abandoned them.

[Jazz_175]

I listened to the clip using headphones.
I can clearly hear (a pleasant) distortion at 4:10, 4:17 and around 4:50.

[helios]

Not to stray off topic, but it appears Mr Bollenback (great chops BTW) is playing a Roger Borys solid body guitar. I think this is the first video where I've seen one played. Typically, I see B120 videos. Thanks for sharing. Jeff

[mad dog]

Love seeing Paul B. at work. Excellent musician.

DRs have a powerful appeal. Not always loud enough or clean enough, but a good one sounds so fine. I saw Steve Cardenas play his with a 335 in an 8 piece band. The volume was just right for the DR. Stand up bass, plus a real finess touch on the drums from Adam Cruz. The balance was perfect. I'm guessing you add a harder hitter on drums, electric bass, you can quickly get out of the mostly clean zone from the DR.

Saw another DR approach last night. Much louder band. Marc Ribot and the prosthetic cubans. Marc was planning a Fender Jaguar through a rather loud DR. Much cleaner than it would have been with P-90s. Still not all that clean. And it blended perfectly with the wonderful organ tones from Anthony Coleman. Marc usually plays bigger amps. I'm guessing he was using that particular amp/guitar combination cause he could get just the right edge at higher volumes with the smaller amp. If I ever get to meet him, I'll ask.

MD

[jzucker]

a lot of NY guitarists ended up putting 40 or 50w output transformers and higher voltage mains and then re-biasing for 6L6 tubes so they're using a deluxe reverb but it's actually 40w. One thing I don't like on the deluxe is that the bright switch is hard-wired on,

[Philco]

The deluxe reverb reissue is shrill IMO and the older ones are a pain to maintain which is why most of the NY jazz guitarists have abandoned them.

I agree about the DRRI being shrill. There is an upper frequency in there that is just plain nasty and I thought it was just me.
I eq that frequency out and I've also had the bright cap removed…….but even so, when you turn that amp up the frequency just wants to take over again. I hate that frequency. Probably great for rock and blues but not for what I want to hear.

[jzucker]

part of the shrillness is easily defeated. There is a bright cap permanently soldered in across the volume control. you can clip it out pretty easily , problem solved but some of the tone is the low wattage speaker and the 6V6 tubes. I think they sound good at low volumes but they distort pretty easily.

[coolvinny]

What is the approximate cost of a Deluxe Reverb after the common modifications that jazzers do? (e.g. changing transformer, tone stack, etc, maybe upgrading speaker if that is common...)

[jzucker]

What is the approximate cost of a Deluxe Reverb after the common modifications that jazzers do? (e.g. changing transformer, tone stack, etc, maybe upgrading speaker if that is common...)

no way to generalize that. It depends on what deluxe reverb you start with. Vintage, new, black face, silver face, '70s with master volume. Then it depends on whether you go with a generic Mojo transformer set ($60/each) or whether you go with fender parts ($75-$100/each) and how much your tech charges for labor. My guess is your techs going to want $300-$400 including parts.

That's assuming your amp works properly in the first place and if you have a silverface or black face fender, it's probably in need of much additional work.

You're might be better off just buying a Gries 35 amp to start out with.

[coolvinny]

Thanks for the info, and actually your last sentence is kind of why I was asking. With lots of 'jazzy' tube amps out there, it seems to me like buying one of those probably makes more sense, unless someone already has a DR and feels attached to it, or if the difference of a few hundred bucks is significant to the person (which is not to say that a few hundred bucks could not be significant...if someone has to make rent and gigs are few and far between, then that makes a lot of sense!). I myself bought a dedicated jazz tube amp - it was not inexpensive but frankly I don't have the time to get into mods on a project amp.

[jzucker]

i'm not sure why so many NY guitarists did this mod instead of just buying a whole new amp but I suppose if they already owned the deluxe reverb it was a lot cheaper. Plus, after you put the new transformers and speaker in it, it's no longer a 30lb amp anymore.

The gries seemed like it was under 40lbs but i believe the newer one is housed in a bigger cabinet. Ironically, he's using a deluxe reverb chassis and cabinet now. Probably sounds better due to the bigger enclosure but also weighs a bit more.

[Jazz_175]

Not to stray off topic, but it appears Mr Bollenback (great chops BTW) is playing a Roger Borys solid body guitar. I think this is the first video where I've seen one played. Typically, I see B120 videos. Thanks for sharing. Jeff

Off topic:
Regarding Paul Bollenback he is such a nice guy. He came to Pescara ( Italy) in Dic 2011 and gave a seminar which a I took part to. He had exactly the same guitar as in the video above. As far as I remember he said the body has tonal chambers. I asked him which amp he used to play at that time and he said "Aer compact 60"!
I asked him if he found it a bit boxy and I think he said so but was very easy to carry around.
He was given a Fender Amp Twin for the seminar. At the end there was a chance to play with him and I stepped up.
I had a Gibson Es-347 and Henriksen JazzAmp 112 and we played Stella By Starlight. It was such a nice experience.
I also have a recording of that performance. I think it was really nice.

[mad dog]

I never understood the heavy DR mods either. Never heard a 6L6 deluxe reverb that sounded better, but that's just my taste.

Having owned two (a mint blackface, also one of the first DRRIs), I concluded it was almost the perfect smaller gigging amp, but not quite. Now playing a Gries 20, which takes the DR formula further. Wonderful amp. Not sure how the transformers and circuit compare to the fender, but to my ears, just plain better. Great master volume, probably the best in amp reverb I've heard too. Stuck a Cannabis Rex in place of the stock Eminence, Brimar 6v6s. Love this amp!
MD

[GuyBoden]

I never understood the heavy DR mods either. Never heard a 6L6 deluxe reverb that sounded better, but that's just my taste.

I've got a Fender Deluxe Reverb that over the years I've changed the transformers to 40watt, the speaker to a Celestion, most of the board components, filter caps, tone stack has a Fender/Marshall switch, it sounds much better and has much, much more head room to my ears.

I've always been building things, as a young man, I studied Electrical and Mechanical Engineering at Manchester University, so this guitar electronics stuff is easy enough.

I've had some Brimar 6v6s they sound good, but different than 6L6s, 6L6s have a bigger, fatter sound.

[jzucker]

guy, did you replace the mains? 375v on 6L6 tubes ain't gonna give you a huge boost and the heater windings on the stock mains transformer will overheat and probably blow with 6L6 tubes.