Why Overdrive on Guitar Amps?

[Skip Ellis]

Now I may be showing my age or stupidity (or both) but I'd like to know why all the amp manufacturers insist on putting 'drive' and 'master' controls on their amps. The classic Fender amps that everyone goes 'gaga' over didn't have them and they sounded fine and still do. I will admit I recently sold an original '64 BF Deluxe because I couldn't stand the tone but I also played a '72 Super Reverb that I bought new for about 35 years and loved it. That being said, I have probably never turned an amp past '5' in my life - past that it starts getting fuzzy and raunchy and out of control. If I needed a clean sound louder than that,I either miked the amp or got one that was clean but louder. Maybe I just don't appreciate the sound of an overdriven amplifier, but to me, it sounds like a blown speaker ready to happen. I've always used speakers that would take way more power than the amp puts out to make sure I got no distortion from the speaker. I even had a 12" EV in a BF Princeton Reverb at one time. I guess it's all in what you like - I grew up listening to Chet, Johnny Smith, Wes, Kenny Burrell, Hank Garland - all guys with clean, undistorted sound. I guess that's why I'm drawn to the little G&K MB200 bass head that I use - it has good EQ, plenty of clean power and ONE (count 'em) ONE volume knob. That's all I need but it's getting harder to find such a critter - even most of the small Class 'D' amps are coming out with master volumes or drive controls and to me they sound awful when they're overdriven. Oh, well, YMMV.

[Skip Ellis]

OK, I'll admit I was rabble rousing a bit with this thread, but, dang it, why can't someone just make a simple 30 or 40 watt amp with volume and tone controls and a decent digital reverb (or even spring)? Even AI, Evans, Polytone and Mambo among others are putting overdrive controls on their amps. I just don't understand why that is when they're marketing to jazz players who, for the most part, seem to want clean power. Evans makes some of the best amps around - they were originally designed for pedal steel and I was a dealer for them back when they were in Texarkana and, as I recall, they had a master even back then (early 80's). Not something a pedal steel player is likely to have need for - We need gobs of power, headroom, and pristine clear tone, especially the guys who play C6th. I guess it all comes down to trying to make something that appeals to the most players. I've been looking for an amp to use as a backup for my MB200 - I like the size and power of the Roland Cube stuff, but there's just too many extraneous features that I don't want to pay for - to me, it's just too many things to go wrong.

[docbop]

Have you checked out the Quilter Aviator series of amps. They are for people wanting a old fashion basic amp.

Quilter Amps

[newsense]

I guess it all comes down to trying to make something that appeals to the most players.

You answered your own question. Why would a business man spend money on developing an amp for a very small market sector, when he can spend the same amount developing an amp that covers all sectors, sell it slightly cheaper, but in 10 times t he numbers. Hence, we have separate gain and master controls. You can play clean and loud, keep the gain low and increase the master, but, just as most of the market wants, boost the gain for overdrive.

There are, as you say, AI, Evans, Mambo, , etc, who have a niche in the jazz market, but their products tend to be more expensive than the equivalent mainstream products due to the smaller market size. Many of them are owner operated, hence they can do what they want: satisfy their passion without having to worry about shareholder value. Fender's attempts at a Jazz amp (e.g. the Ultralight) don't sell enough, by Fender standards, to keep the accountants happy. That's business.

[bananafist]

I hear you Skip, I grew up with Chet et al and prefer clean sounds.
VVT make the Lindy Fralin amp, 1 x 15", 35 watts, cathode biased 2 x 6L6, will take 6V6s if required, Clean sound, Vol, Treble,Bass,Reverb and bright switch. I'm happy with mine. Even with the import duty, etc.

[jorgemg1984]

Now I may be showing my age or stupidity (or both) but I'd like to know why all the amp manufacturers insist on putting 'drive' and 'master' controls on their amps. The classic Fender amps that everyone goes 'gaga' over didn't have them and they sounded fine and still do. I will admit I recently sold an original '64 BF Deluxe because I couldn't stand the tone but I also played a '72 Super Reverb that I bought new for about 35 years and loved it. That being said, I have probably never turned an amp past '5' in my life - past that it starts getting fuzzy and raunchy and out of control. If I needed a clean sound louder than that,I either miked the amp or got one that was clean but louder. Maybe I just don't appreciate the sound of an overdriven amplifier, but to me, it sounds like a blown speaker ready to happen. I've always used speakers that would take way more power than the amp puts out to make sure I got no distortion from the speaker. I even had a 12" EV in a BF Princeton Reverb at one time. I guess it's all in what you like - I grew up listening to Chet, Johnny Smith, Wes, Kenny Burrell, Hank Garland - all guys with clean, undistorted sound. I guess that's why I'm drawn to the little G&K MB200 bass head that I use - it has good EQ, plenty of clean power and ONE (count 'em) ONE volume knob. That's all I need but it's getting harder to find such a critter - even most of the small Class 'D' amps are coming out with master volumes or drive controls and to me they sound awful when they're overdriven. Oh, well, YMMV.

I sort of come to notice everyday you wake up you choose a new "battle".

An amp having gain and master does not mean it will produce overdrive... the mambo and the evans are clean amps even with the gain all the way up. The gain / master is VERY good to achieve the same sound at different volumes, which might not be relevant for playing at home but it is when you play different rooms. Low gain means a very acoustic sound with an archtop and high gain means you'll hear mostly the pickup. Very different sounds yet both clean. Have you even tried these amps? Defeating a master volume is easy any way, run it pretty high and just use the gain control.

Fender amps, being great and all, have lots of practical problems in the real world, one being precisely you can't find the "sweet spot" in most rooms because you don't have a master volume. And lots of people appreciate an overdriven amp sound... speaker distortion and preamp distortion are very different things btw.

Not everyone can just afford getting another amp and micing an amp is not possible a lot of the times.

Funny also the names you mention, Burrell and Wes have plenty of recordings where a subtle overdrive is heard... and lots of people here buy low watt tweed amps or "amp in a box" pedals to achieve that sound.

And you have Henriksen and old Polytones as amps with no master (and probably a lot more I can't remember right now).

You know, not everyone has the same taste as you

[jorgemg1984]

Have you checked out the Quilter Aviator series of amps. They are for people wanting a old fashion basic amp.

Quilter Amps

Well it has gain and master... a little ironic no?

[oldane]

You answered your own question. Why would a business man spend money on developing an amp for a very small market sector, when he can spend the same amount developing an amp that covers all sectors, sell it slightly cheaper, but in 10 times t he numbers. Hence, we have separate gain and master controls. You can play clean and loud, keep the gain low and increase the master, but, just as most of the market wants, boost the gain for overdrive.

There are, as you say, AI, Evans, Mambo, , etc, who have a niche in the jazz market, but their products tend to be more expensive than the equivalent mainstream products due to the smaller market size. Many of them are owner operated, hence they can do what they want: satisfy their passion without having to worry about shareholder value. Fender's attempts at a Jazz amp (e.g. the Ultralight) don't sell enough, by Fender standards, to keep the accountants happy. That's business.

Exactly. It's all about real world common business sense. The overdrive option is there because lots of people want it. But just because there's an option doesn't mean it's mandatory to use it. I have both gain and master on my 4 amps and it doesn't bother me at all though I never use overdrive.

Now, another and far more significant thing is that some amps don't have the center frequencies of the tone controls in the optimal place for electric guitar. Say, Mambo has them right, but the older AI amps are way off for electric guitar (I don't know about the newest ones). As a consequence many people using AI heads for electric guitar put a suitable preamp/EQ pedal in front of it to get the sound right. In all fairness, it must be admitted that the older AI heads were not primarily targeted at electric guitars (though AI tried to push their ads in that direction too) - they were more general purpose amps which can be used for many purposes (actually quite PA like), and they should be seen as a module in a module chain rather than stand alone guitar amps. For example the "treble" control on the AI has the center frequency at 10kHz, which is far above the signal from an electric gutar, but it comes in handy when using the amp for miked acoustic instruments or singing. And BTW, the AI head has one extremely useful feature - the "low cut" knob (actually a high pass filter) which works great when room boominess gets problematic and it's also great for tightening up the buttom end of the sound just right. It's extremely simple and cheap to make and I wish many more amps would have it.

[Engine Swap]

Ever try to find someone doing a "clean" demo on Youtube?

[jorgemg1984]

Exactly. It's all about real world common business sense. The overdrive option is there because lots of people want it. But just because there's an option doesn't mean it's mandatory to use it. I have both gain and master on my 4 amps and it doesn't bother me at all though I never use overdrive.

Now, another and far more significant thing is that some amps don't have the center frequencies of the tone controls in the optimal place for electric guitar. Say, Mambo has them right, but the older AI amps are way off for electric guitar (I don't know about the newest ones). As a consequence many people using AI heads for electric guitar put a suitable preamp/EQ pedal in front of it to get the sound right. In all fairness, it must be admitted that the older AI heads were not primarily targeted at electric guitars (though AI tried to push their ads in that direction too) - they were more general purpose amps which can be used for many purposes (actually quite PA like), and they should be seen as a module in a module chain rather than stand alone guitar amps. For example the "treble" control on the AI has the center frequency at 10kHz, which is far above the signal from an electric gutar, but it comes in handy when using the amp for miked acoustic instruments or singing. And BTW, the AI head has one extremely useful feature - the "low cut" knob (actually a high pass filter) which works great when room boominess gets problematic and it's also great for tightening up the buttom end of the sound just right. It's extremely simple and cheap to make and I wish many more amps would have it.

I agree with the tone control thing, bugged me for years with "jazz amps". As you say, Mambo got ir right (finally). It's not just center frequency, an RC Booster and a Jazzmaster Ultralight have the treble at 10k and they both work well (really well) for electric guitar - it's also about how they operate when you move them. I've had pedals and amps with the treble in the right spot (4k-5k) that didn't sound good.

I couldn't agree more with the low cut, should be mandatory with all amps. Very effective!

[jorgemg1984]

Ever try to find someone doing a "clean" demo on Youtube?

True. The notion of "clean" is a place like TGP or YT is comical for jazzers.

[Jazz_175]

an RC Booster .....

Excuse me for the OFF Topic, but I would like to ask: Jorgemg: do you use the RC with the Mambo or the Henriksen and how?

[jorgemg1984]

With both.

I no longer have the Henriksen but it sounded great with that amp... but the Henriksen is a "pedal eater" to me, it loves all eqs. The bass and treble are very well suited to gutiar, much better then the amp's eq. But the Barb EQ was the winner with the Henriksen.

I have also used it with the Mambo, which I still have, with good results but I just got to the conclusion the Mambo sounds perfect with no eqs (except some parametric tweaking on the mids). So now I just use a Zoom MS50G in front of it with parametric eq, delay and reverb - I use the amp's bass and treble which work great with archtops.

I am using the RC Booster with my digital rig these days which has become my main rig. Sounds excellent with a good cab simulator but I love baxandall eqs... the RC Booster is intriguing because it sounds good with my archtops, my steel acoustic and my classical. Go figure.

Mine is a clone (I actually have two). It has some mods - OPA2134 op amps, 1M gain pot and a mid circuit took from the Spark Booster. These last two are irrelevant because I don't use the mids and the gain is always on zero.

[Danny W.]

OK, I'll admit I was rabble rousing a bit with this thread, but, dang it, why can't someone just make a simple 30 or 40 watt amp with volume and tone controls and a decent digital reverb (or even spring)? Even AI, Evans, Polytone and Mambo among others are putting overdrive controls on their amps.

No AI has an overdrive control--in their FAQ they explain that if you want overdrive with an AI amp, use an external pedal. As a longtime user of AI I can assure you that you can't overdrive their amps in any meaningful way.

Danny W.

[Woody Sound]

I guess it all comes down to trying to make something that appeals to the most players.

There ya go. If ya want clean, set it that way. If ya want some grit, set it that way. Same amp, both markets.

[Skip Ellis]

No AI has an overdrive control--in their FAQ they explain that if you want overdrive with an AI amp, use an external pedal. As a longtime user of AI I can assure you that you can't overdrive their amps in any meaningful way.

Danny W.

It has a channel volume and a master - why both? Why not just turn it up with the channel voume? Generally, to me, a master volume is to enable you to control the overall volume if you turn the channel volume wide open which would tend to distort at some level - desireable for some, not so desireable for others (me!) Now, I realize that diming out the master and using the channel volume would work just fine but deep down, I just hate paying for circuitry that I don't need or want. The bells and whistles also provide additional things to go wrong and raise the price of repairs when they do (and they will) go wrong. Someone suggested Quilter, and as much as I respect Pat Quilter for his genius, I wouldn't buy one if I could afford it - it's just too complicated for my sensibilities. To me, an amplifier should AMPLIFY, which means making the original signal louder, not imparting it's own character to the signal. A guitar amp should not (IMHO) be a seperate musical instrument. I think, with what little I know about them, AI has succeeded in making a product that does this. Early reports, are, however, that Quilter has not done so well. I learned to play the guitar because I REALLY like the sound of the guitar: however, I do realize, at times, it needs to be made louder - that's what an amp is for. If you want distortion, phase, flange, delay, octaving, etc. buy a pedal. I was always curious as to why someone would spend $4-$5 thousand dollars for a '59 replica Les Paul then hook it up to a $39 fuzz box to screw up the sound. Maybe I should just retire and take up knitting......



REMEMBER: RAP MUSIC IS A CONTRADICTION IN TERMS!!!

[Danny W.]

It has a channel volume and a master - why both? Why not just turn it up with the channel voume? Generally, to me, a master volume is to enable you to control the overall volume if you turn the channel volume wide open which would tend to distort at some level - desireable for some, not so desireable for others (me!) Now, I realize that diming out the master and using the channel volume would work just fine but deep down, I just hate paying for circuitry that I don't need or want. The bells and whistles also provide additional things to go wrong and raise the price of repairs when they do (and they will) go wrong. Someone suggested Quilter, and as much as I respect Pat Quilter for his genius, I wouldn't buy one if I could afford it - it's just too complicated for my sensibilities. To me, an amplifier should AMPLIFY, which means making the original signal louder, not imparting it's own character to the signal. A guitar amp should not (IMHO) be a seperate musical instrument. I think, with what little I know about them, AI has succeeded in making a product that does this. Early reports, are, however, that Quilter has not done so well. I learned to play the guitar because I REALLY like the sound of the guitar: however, I do realize, at times, it needs to be made louder - that's what an amp is for. If you want distortion, phase, flange, delay, octaving, etc. buy a pedal. I was always curious as to why someone would spend $4-$5 thousand dollars for a '59 replica Les Paul then hook it up to a $39 fuzz box to screw up the sound. Maybe I should just retire and take up knitting......



REMEMBER: RAP MUSIC IS A CONTRADICTION IN TERMS!!!

It has nothing to do with overdrive. The input level allows you to use the amp with a wide range of sources without overdriving the preamp. The master sets the overall volume. If I am using a direct out to FOH I use the input to set the level to the sound system and use the master to adjust my local volume. I can then adjust my local volume as I like without affecting the FOH level. In addition, on two channel versions, the input levels allow balancing them.

I use all the features on my AI amps. Just because you have no use for some of them doesn't mean the rest of us don't. In addition, my AI amps have been the most reliable I have ever owned, even with all the features.


Danny W.

[jorgemg1984]

How is a master volume comparable to having chorus on an amp? How does a master volume makes an amp more expensive to repair? They're very useful, as Danny explained, and just put them on 10 if you don't like them. If you don't like amp coloration why did you liked you Super Reverb? Far from a flat amp.

[drbhrb]

I don't think many people view the amplifier's role as being one of pure volume. Anyone that has DI'd an electric guitar(yes, archtops too) into a mixing board knows that the tone coming right out of a magnetic pickup isn't all that wonderful.

For me, I mainly see the guitar as the means of creating the sound. The strings, pickup, and amp are mainly the source of the character of that sound.

[Woody Sound]

It has a channel volume and a master - why both? Why not just turn it up with the channel voume?

C'mon Skip, seriously? That's not a distortion issue. It allows you to control the whole amp independent of individual channels.

[Skip Ellis]

How is a master volume comparable to having chorus on an amp? How does a master volume makes an amp more expensive to repair? They're very useful, as Danny explained, and just put them on 10 if you don't like them. If you don't like amp coloration why did you liked you Super Reverb? Far from a flat amp.

It's what I had at the time and I set everything to '5' and controlled the level with the SINGLE volume control, usually about '3' on the dial. You have to remember that some of us don't have the financial means to buy and sell equipment on a daily basis while looking for that magic tone (that will also change every time you play in a different room) and have to use what we're lucky enough to have available - that's why I used the same '68 Tele and Super Reverb for 35 years and that's why I'm using homemade guitars and speaker cabinets today. I'd love to be able to afford an AI because it sounds like it comes closer to what I want than about anything out there. The only time I adjust the EQ on my MB200 is when I switch from steel to guitar (and then not much) and the volume is always at 12:00. I guess it's also why I play Telecasters instead of Gibsons - Gibson's have too many knobs - I've never been able to get a decent sound 'on the fly' out of the things. I had one real nice late 70's LP Standard with ORIGINAL PAF's in it back in the day and it worked pretty well becasue I had it wired like a Tele - 2 knobs worked and the other 2 were dummies!

I posted a PSA the other day about a Clarus w/RE cabinet on another forum - I might try to pinch a few pennies and see what I can do.

[oldane]

.... but deep down, I just hate paying for circuitry that I don't need or want.

Amp manufactorers just hate building amps that only few will buy. If amps with the characteristics you request could sell in numbers to make the production profitable, they would certainly make them. After all, they are in it for money.

Maybe I should just retire and take up knitting......

At least you won't need an amp for that.

[Skip Ellis]

I don't think many people view the amplifier's role as being one of pure volume. Anyone that has DI'd an electric guitar(yes, archtops too) into a mixing board knows that the tone coming right out of a magnetic pickup isn't all that wonderful.

For me, I mainly see the guitar as the means of creating the sound. The strings, pickup, and amp are mainly the source of the character of that sound.

That's where we differ - I favor the guitar sound, only louder - that's why I build a guitar a certain way with certain woods and other components to achieve a particular sound - the wood, strings, pots, caps, pickups, etc. all contribute to the overall sound that I was striving for with the instrument. It seems to me that you're saying that the guitar is no more than the keyboard of a synthesiser - it provides a signal whose only purpose is to be altered by outside means.

DannyW - I have never DI'd or mic'd an amp in my llife and don't intend to start now. I guess i'm just not far enough up the food chain to be to be engaging in such activities. Besides, I wouldn't trust someone else to deliver my sound (such as it is) to an audience. I just ask someone in the audience if they can hear me OK and if 'yes', that's cool, if 'no'. I turn it up a tad, or vice versa. Simple, huh?

[jorgemg1984]

It's what I had at the time and I set everything to '5' and controlled the level with the SINGLE volume control, usually about '3' on the dial. You have to remember that some of us don't have the financial means to buy and sell equipment on a daily basis while looking for that magic tone (that will also change every time you play in a different room) and have to use what we're lucky enough to have available - that's why I used the same '68 Tele and Super Reverb for 35 years and that's why I'm using homemade guitars and speaker cabinets today. I'd love to be able to afford an AI because it sounds like it comes closer to what I want than about anything out there. The only time I adjust the EQ on my MB200 is when I switch from steel to guitar (and then not much) and the volume is always at 12:00. I guess it's also why I play Telecasters instead of Gibsons - Gibson's have too many knobs - I've never been able to get a decent sound 'on the fly' out of the things. I had one real nice late 70's LP Standard with ORIGINAL PAF's in it back in the day and it worked pretty well becasue I had it wired like a Tele - 2 knobs worked and the other 2 were dummies!

I posted a PSA the other day about a Clarus w/RE cabinet on another forum - I might try to pinch a few pennies and see what I can do.

A Super Reverb with everything on 5 is VERY FAR from flat, it's coloring your sound A LOT. But if tone controls confuse you I guess there's no point going on.

[jorgemg1984]

I don't think many people view the amplifier's role as being one of pure volume. Anyone that has DI'd an electric guitar(yes, archtops too) into a mixing board knows that the tone coming right out of a magnetic pickup isn't all that wonderful.

For me, I mainly see the guitar as the means of creating the sound. The strings, pickup, and amp are mainly the source of the character of that sound.

I couldn't agree with you more but a lot of people like to think otherwise - an amp on 5 delivers a "pure" sound out of an humbucker, God knows how.