Guitar price vs value

[fumblefingers]

- There is a lot of 'It's my favorite so it must represent a good value' in this thread. I own many things I enjoy and would not replace with an alternative based on cost. That doesn't make these things a good value. It just makes them my preference.

- 'How much you can sell it for' is marketing. 'How good is it for how much is costs' is value.

- Knowing yourself and your requirements may sound easy, but it's quite hard. It takes playing and owning a lot of guitars to zero in on what you really want. It also takes trusting your own eyes and ears. There are a couple of approaches that work for getting to experience several instrument configurations and sizes. Buying brand new high end US factory guitars is not one of them

- Professional musicians have several unique requirements that don't apply to the rest of us. Return on investment, image, durability, maintainability and others. Not to mention the world of endorsement. A good guitar for your favorite guitar player may not be a good guitar for you.

- A custom made instrument is a bargain. They are always ('always' being a statement of statistical approximation) far better than a factory instrument. Not only can you specify the details to achieve the perfect playability for you, but you'll get the very best sound the wood is capable of. And you can call out whatever shiny bits you might enjoy or have it spartan and to the point. They are the logical destination once you know what you want in your primary instrument. This is, of course, assuming that music is what you want it for.

i'm sorry but i think that these definitions are personal, just like the one above about "diminishing returns".

diminishing returns in terms of what? utility? fine. quality? fine. but not grade. and NOT value. not necessarily.

think about the word value, and think about the word returns. these are financial terms first and foremost when we are talking about investing funds (and we are talking about that).

what about the value and return of a 1930s or 1940s Super 400? original price around $500 perhaps, and now selling for $39K.

that folks, is the definition of a good return at least for a musical instrument that is being used throughout its life. that is the definition of value.

i have a custom luthier instrument. but i'll tell you something. once the luthier dies he either (1) had better have been one of the select few "transcendant ones", or (2) his company had better still be around making the same grade guitars. otherwise the market for his used instruments will shrink over the decades after his death, and the price will as well.

Gibson? people know that Gibson has been around for over a century and will likely be around for a long time to come.
and they still make very nice mandolins.

another example of this: you go to an auction and the price for a Van Gogh goes way high and you buy it for tens of millions anyway. how much did that canvas, paint and labor really cost back then you might wonder. and is it really "better" than some highly talented, well established living impressionist's best work? but - then you sell it for millions more.

that's value. that's a return.

[Jim Soloway]

i'm not sure who you're referring to. the top players play whatever they want, especially at home and in the studio.

amatuers and scufflers? sure, they're another story. they have other bills to pay yada, yada. we all have our burdens, so why should we give a...... hoot.

I think we live in at least a different world and possibly in a different universe so I'm going to just leave it at that and bow out now.

EDIT... What the hell...

Ed Bickert spent his career playing a Telecaster
Lenny Breau made two of the mot important albums in the history of jazz guitar playing the Baldwin version of a Burns Bison
Bill Frisell has spent most of his careen playing SG's and Teles (and his main Tele is a MIM model)
John Schofield has spent most of his career playing an old Ibanez 335 type
Lorne Lofsky plays mostly an Ibanez Roadstar
Mike Stern plays a Yamaha Pacifica and before that Strats and Teles.
Sylvain Luc plays a Godin, mostly a multiac and now one of their consumer Archtops
And countless immortal recordings were made with Gibson laminates including the recordings that defined Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis etc.

The history of jazz guitar was made mostly with working class instruments and it was made mostly by players who were scuffling at the time.

[2bornot2bop]

no, not necessarily. what does that even mean "life extracts a toll"? sounds witty and poetic but life doesn't extract anything.

Ask a normal working stiff who isn't in the position to buy Citations just for fun....he'll tell ya. A vast number trade their dream of doing what they'd prefer to do vocationally, for the safety of a paycheck. That's old news, and historical fact. If that's not your norm, you're in the minority....and to risk seeking vocational happiness otherwise one definitely must pay a toll....even if they're only gambling or betting on themselves. If that weren't the case there'd likely be more self employed musicians, or music teachers.

[rpguitar]

The history of jazz guitar was made mostly with working class instruments and it was made mostly by players who were scuffling at the time.

All of what Jim says... and to provide the converse of great players with modest guitars, here are a few great players with fancy pants guitars:

There's a whole bunch of Benedetto players - Alden, Wilkins, etc.
Jim Hall and Grant Green each had a spell with D'Aquisto
Julian Lage slings a '33 L-5 and a Manzer. Metheny has a few Manzers.

My whole additional point being that it doesn't matter what guitar you play if you're a great player!! So, play what you like. End of story (it really is).

[Spook410]

what about the value and return of a 1930s or 1940s Super 400? original price around $500 perhaps, and now selling for $39K.

that folks, is the definition of a good return at least for a musical instrument that is being used throughout its life. that is the definition of value.

Let me help you out with that. $500 invested in a collection of stocks represented the S&P 500 in 1930 would be worth $86,570 today. That's adjusted for inflation.

Musical instruments are poor investments. Even when you cherry pick specific models. If you want a good investment get a good grasp on compound interest and seek out a balanced portfolio in equities and bonds consistent with your financial goals. If you want to make music and you're unsure what guitar to buy, start with some of the excellent and affordable choices we currently have available and take full advantage of the used guitar market until you know exactly what you want.

As for custom guitars, is retaining value why someone buys one? I bought my flat top customs to make music and they are still among the guitars I will never part with. I also have a Martin D40BLE.. a fine factory guitar that has appreciated over time. However, it will be sold long before the customs. When I buy a custom archtop, it will be built for me to make music and because I have had many very good Chinese archtops to define and hone my personal requirements, I'll have no need to be concerned about resale.

[Bluedawg]

[Greentone]

Why gibson volute = bad? Martin volute (D28) = good?

[Broyale]

Why gibson volute = bad? Martin volute (D28) = good?

I've been meaning to ask this myself, why do players hate the volute?

[entresz]

No idea ...
I like them. I have a 1977 Gibson L6-S , 2011 Gibson L6-S reissue, and a 1958 Hofner Senator all of which have volutes. I've always thought they were a nice touch. It has no real bearing on whether I like a guitar or not.

[fumblefingers]

Bullshit! There are many top players, including those who played on many of the classic recordings we all know, who spent their entire lives in or on the edge of poverty. You can't equate financial success with artistic merit, or even artistic successs and importance. Under your definition, Bird wasn't a top player ever, and Monk wasn't a top player until the 1960s. It's what a musician gets out of his instrument that counts.

let's stay on topic please - guitars.

C. Christian - Gibson archtop
Django - Gibson archtop (late)
Kessel - same - even had his own model
Farlow - same as Kessel
Wes - L5, and even said that it was a normal guitar and he didn't want anything fancy that couldn't be easily replaced (see the irony here? this is the guitar that people here are putting on a lofty big-buck pedestal. he bought it when he was a struggling factory worker with 6 kids too, or was it 7? That is commitment, which is the real point here)
Benson - the list is long - Super 5, Guilds, Johnny Smith, vintage D'Angelico, Buscarino Virtuoso, etc., etc.
Burrell - Super 400s, Benedetto
Johnny Smith - well... plus Benedetto Cremona
Ron Eschete - Benedetto
Many, many players - see "Benedetto players"
Hall - D'Aquisto
Pass - same
Metheny - Manzer
McLaughlin - multiple custom guitars and two Johnny Smiths

and that's just the old guard

then there are Diana Krall's past and current guitarists - Super 400, Buscarino Monarch, Montelleone,

i could go on but there is no point.

some people will tell you that they don't want to spend a lot on a guitar but will have: a jet ski, bass boat, vacation home, time share, recreational vehicle, carribean cruise package, gun collection, golf membership, oriental rug, fancy furniture, fancy audio system, etc.

i say BS back at ya.

[fumblefingers]

Let me help you out with that. $500 invested in a collection of stocks represented the S&P 500 in 1930 would be worth $86,570 today. That's adjusted for inflation.

Musical instruments are poor investments. Even when you cherry pick specific models. If you want a good investment get a good grasp on compound interest and seek out a balanced portfolio in equities and bonds consistent with your financial goals. If you want to make music and you're unsure what guitar to buy, start with some of the excellent and affordable choices we currently have available and take full advantage of the used guitar market until you know exactly what you want.

As for custom guitars, is retaining value why someone buys one? I bought my flat top customs to make music and they are still among the guitars I will never part with. I also have a Martin D40BLE.. a fine factory guitar that has appreciated over time. However, it will be sold long before the customs. When I buy a custom archtop, it will be built for me to make music and because I have had many very good Chinese archtops to define and hone my personal requirements, I'll have no need to be concerned about resale.

really? this is glaringly obvious and gets covered about every 6 months. nobody ever said that any guitar was part of a financial portfolio.

but thanks for the financial fundamentals lesson, captain obvious.

[fumblefingers]

I think we live in at least a different world and possibly in a different universe so I'm going to just leave it at that and bow out now.

EDIT... What the hell...

Ed Bickert spent his career playing a Telecaster
Lenny Breau made two of the mot important albums in the history of jazz guitar playing the Baldwin version of a Burns Bison
Bill Frisell has spent most of his careen playing SG's and Teles (and his main Tele is a MIM model)
John Schofield has spent most of his career playing an old Ibanez 335 type
Lorne Lofsky plays mostly an Ibanez Roadstar
Mike Stern plays a Yamaha Pacifica and before that Strats and Teles.
Sylvain Luc plays a Godin, mostly a multiac and now one of their consumer Archtops
And countless immortal recordings were made with Gibson laminates including the recordings that defined Jim Hall, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis etc.

The history of jazz guitar was made mostly with working class instruments and it was made mostly by players who were scuffling at the time.

yes, i am aware. please see see my later post.

but there are a couple of flaws in your argument; (1) newer generation fusion/rock/other style players who play loud, sometimes distorted music aren't really the archtop kinda guys anyway, are they?

Hall and Pass had D'Aquisto's. They also were small guys and probably were disinclined to play long scale guitars (no L5s or Super 400s for them). they both preferred 24.75 scale length, yes?

I never said that Herb Ellis was particularly successful, but he was probably successful enough to have what he wanted. You know, like his own Gibson signature guitar for example?

[fumblefingers]

Ask a normal working stiff who isn't in the position to buy Citations just for fun....he'll tell ya. A vast number trade their dream of doing what they'd prefer to do vocationally, for the safety of a paycheck. That's old news, and historical fact. If that's not your norm, you're in the minority....and to risk seeking vocational happiness otherwise one definitely must pay a toll....even if they're only gambling or betting on themselves. If that weren't the case there'd likely be more self employed musicians, or music teachers.

i don't disagree, but it sounded fatalistic.

i think that we make choices and thus take a toll from our own lives, not the other way around.

[disco~juice]

Someone is trolling here, I won't tell who...

[iim7V7IM7]

Posts like this one in this particular forum, unfortunately seem to run their own course. We're now discussing the choices that we made in life for our day jobs, making a living as a jazz guitarist and what guitars famous recording artists played. The OP's question was driven by large contrast in pricing between Asian factory guitars, US factory guitars and custom luthier made instruments.

In the end, along the continuum of pricing, quality will not progress along a linear line of return. The order of magnitude difference in cost between these guitars is driven by regional differences in pay, economies of scale, brand equity, quality of materials and the value of the expertise of the maker. Different players will always have different priorities driving their instrument choices. Given the same means, some want historic factory instruments others prefer a bespoke instrument made by a craftsman. Some folks look for resale value others don't. It's a fantastic thing that we have so many choices today. All of the instruments being discussed in the right hands are capable of making beautiful music.

It's as simple as that.

[Jim Soloway]

Someone is trolling here, I won't tell who...

And some of us were too easily trolled. Sorry for my part in it. I knew better and waded on in anyway.

[PTChristopher2]

Looks to me more like a multi-troll. Poly-troll? Meta-Troll? Surely there is a word for more than one troll agenda running at once. Maybe if we included "string tension" along with guitar value?

[mr. beaumont]

Django hated his Gibson. Just saying. He used the Gibson only during his one trip to America.

The Gibson volute itself isn't bad, it's they were used during a period of time in Gibson's history where quality was supposedly sketchy. I dunno...I've played several Norlin era Gibsons and liked them all.

[Greentone]

Jim,

:-o

[Jabberwocky]

Sybil-troll...with due apologies to persons named Sybil.

[oldane]

Django hated his Gibson. Just saying. He used the Gibson only during his one trip to America.

He disliked it so much that he eventually choose to have his own Selmer sent over from France. A famous photo of him shows him briefly playing Fred Guy's Levin (which Guy had bought in Gothenburg during a previous Ellington tour in Europe). Django's stay in US was not terribly successful. His bohemian attitude to time and schudules didn't fit well with the rather tight packed concert program which was planned for him. He was supposed to play a concert with Ellingtons orchestra, but didn't show up for it.

[Patrick2]

I really don't detect trolling in this thread. True, it has spun off tangentially (as PTChris like to say) from it's OP. But, while I've seen opinions, descent and disagreements with with opinions, friendly . . and some not so friendly banter, I've not seen anyone trolling just for the sake of instigation. Any discussion which might involve any degree of subjectivity is highly likely to turn into spirited banter. I don't see that as trolling. Sometimes it's actually quite entertaining and informative.

Sometimes . . actually often times . . . the person that disco-juice mentioned, *without mentioning* . . . just seems to get a bad rap and undeserved criticism.

[Jabberwocky]

[fumblefingers]

Django hated his Gibson. Just saying. He used the Gibson only during his one trip to America.

The Gibson volute itself isn't bad, it's they were used during a period of time in Gibson's history where quality was supposedly sketchy. I dunno...I've played several Norlin era Gibsons and liked them all.

Fine. My point was that top players get the guitars that they want.

i also made the point that they change them frequently.

more evidence of the points...

[Greentone]

FWIW, Herb Ellis never played his signature model Gibson. He _did_ play his signature model Aria Pro II until the company failed to live up to their agreement with him, or so he told me. Then, he went back to his '53 OP Trio-era ES-175, which he had re-fitted with an ABR1 bridge and a humbicking pickup. It may look like a 165, but I assure you it was his old Gibson.