Guitar price vs value

[Hammertone]

>>> And there are questions about the long term popularity of guitars
Around 1979 Gary Numan predicted the end of guitars in popular music. We were, according to Gary, all going to be living in cars, playing synths, and apparently spelling our last names funny in the near future. Chris

We cam clos

My view is that, as Western civilization continues to be degraded by the illusory promises of the digital domain, there will be a greater need for analogue sensory experience to compensate for the deprivations of digital experience. Live acoustic guitars, electric guitars played through analogue amplifiers, and similar instruments will continue to appeal to people. Since guitar is such an easy instrument on which to achieve an acceptable albeit mediocre level of proficiency, I'm not worried about its future.

[oldane]

My view is that, as Western civilization continues to be degraded by the illusory promises of the digital domain, there will be a greater need for analogue sensory experience to compensate for the deprivations of digital experience. Live acoustic guitars, electric guitars played through analogue amplifiers, and similar instruments will continue to appeal to people. Since guitar is such an easy instrument on which to achieve an acceptable albeit mediocre level of proficiency, I'm not worried about its future.

I can second that. FWIW, I still wear a hand wound mechanical wrist watch and still write with a Pelikan fountain pen filled from an ink bottle. I know it, I'm an über nerd. But then, I'm not the only one on this forum.

[pluvia]

I wonder what would have happened if the Roland synth guitars from the 80/90s caught on as the new standard of guitars...

This will be our new strat: Misa Digital

As how music progresses and expands in other new genres, technical needs of instruments will also have to be improved. I don't want to be stuck with an archtop when I'm performing in the style of Snarky Puppy or Robert Glasper..Because Wes and Django has been dead for half a century and we aren't stuck in that era of music. Very, very dead.

[oldane]

..Because Wes and Django has been dead for half a century and we aren't stuck in that era of music.

Some of us are.

[pluvia]

Some of us are.

Oops...I forgot that this is a jazz guitar forum...I need coffee.

[Hammertone]

Snarky Puppy and Glasper sound pretty analogue to me.
I see no reason why the sound of an archtop guitar wouldn't fit right in with what they do.

[SuperFour00]

Art comes from your soul. More advanced technology doesn't make better art, a more advanced soul does. You can adapt your soul to a new tool, but the tool is just a tool, it's you that is creating the music, not the tool. A car is not an improved version of a horse. (Or a motorcycle either). Neither is a GPS an improved version of a sunrise.

[Greentone]

I play with synths/sequencers all the time...But I don't mix them with my jazz.

[DRS]

Want your new technomarvelous guitar to catch on in a big way? Become famous playing one.

[pluvia]

Art comes from your soul. More advanced technology doesn't make better art, a more advanced soul does. You can adapt your soul to a new tool, but the tool is just a tool, it's you that is creating the music, not the tool. A car is not an improved version of a horse. (Or a motorcycle either). Neither is a GPS an improved version of a sunrise.

...I don't see anyone soulfully ridin' horses with a compass on the highway.

[SuperFour00]

...I don't see anyone soulfully ridin' horses with a compass on the highway.

You wouldn't.

[Klatu]

I haven't reread the 10 pages of this thread to find out if this has already been discussed, but I'd like to suggest a few brands which provide exceptional value in my opinion.

The first and most impressive is Eastman. I've found that while their necks, especially on earlier models, can be hit or miss, finding good example provides the quality of high end US factory work at budget Asian prices. Next is Hofner. Recent models can be had for well under $2,000, often feature carved tops and hand craftsmanship, and feature top quality hardware. I consider their necks to be the most comfortable I've experienced, and that's a long list. Finally, 80s Yamahas are criminally undervalued. Their Japanese archtops are on par with anything comming out of Japan during that era and compare favorably with US built instruments of the day.

The honorable mention goes to Heritage which builds guitars with massive personality at reasonable prices. I would no longer include them in the top tier of quality for price as their prices have increased significantly over the years. They are still far less expensive than their more prestigious Gibson cousins, but they are no longer the giveaway bastard stepchildren they once were.

[Hammertone]

... brands which provide exceptional value in my opinion….Eastman... Hofner….80s Yamahas ...Heritage ...

If you are talking about prices for used instruments, then Heritage certainly fits the bill. Pricing for new archtops from Eastman has been cleverly creeping up - once one adds the "premium" wood packages, pickup and so forth. Retail prices for new German-built Hofner archtops are quite high, but so few of them are made or available that no one notices. Regarding Heritage, there seems to be a steady stream of used Heritage guitars available at very attractive prices.

IMO, it's the used market that defines perceived value.

[Klatu]

Thanks for clearing that up, Hammertone. I was referring to the used market. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of the instruments I've purchased have been used.

As for Heritage's used prices, it depends on the model. Archtops can generally be had at a substantial discount when compared to Gibsons on the used market, but their semi hollow and solidbody guitars are catching up to their Gibson equivalents. I also want to add that Heritage manufactures models on the lower end of the professional solid carved range that Gibson doesn't. Such instruments lack the binding and inlay work of premium Gibsons but can be had at excellent prices.

[Hammertone]

I see Super Eagles and Golden Eagles selling used for half the price (or less) of used Gibson Super 400 and L-5 models. I'm not as up-to-date on the comparison between Heritage H525-530-535-555/137-140-150-157 models and similar Gibson ES-225-330-335-355/various Les Paul models, but there is a big gap. My perception of the various other Heritage models that have no simple Gibson comparison is that they are an excellent value on the used market as well.

[Klatu]

Keep in mind that I included Heritage on my list as an honorable mention. I have four Heritage guitars that I love to death and would hardily recommend them to anyone looking for a quality professional level jazz box.

[mr. beaumont]

I really think (and not just because I own both, it's WHY I own both) that Heritage and Hofner (particularly used) offer the best bang for the buck out there. Not that that should be the only consideration, but you get your money's worth, for sure.

[2bornot2bop]

I really think (and not just because I own both, it's WHY I own both) that Heritage and Hofner (particularly used) offer the best bang for the buck out there. Not that that should be the only consideration, but you get your money's worth, for sure.

there's an echo in here....

[Patrick2]

Thanks for clearing that up, Hammertone. I was referring to the used market. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of the instruments I've purchased have been used.

As for Heritage's used prices, it depends on the model. Archtops can generally be had at a substantial discount when compared to Gibsons on the used market, but their semi hollow and solidbody guitars are catching up to their Gibson equivalents. I also want to add that Heritage manufactures models on the lower end of the professional solid carved range that Gibson doesn't. Such instruments lack the binding and inlay work of premium Gibsons but can be had at excellent prices.

Klatu . . I've just got to clear up the misconception of the Heritage pre owned (I hate to use the term . . used) semis and solid bodies catching up to Gibson's similar models. That's just not correct . . unless you compare an H150 to a production model of the Les Paul . . and an H535 to the production model of an ES335. The proper comparison would be an H150 against an R9, R7, Nashville Custom Shop Reissues . . . and an H535 against a '63 or a '59 Custom Shop Reissue. In that case, the Heritage guitrars can be had for a fraction of their Gibson counter parts. A really nice R9 has a current market value of anywhere from $4,000 to $5,000. A really nice H150 can be had for well under $1,500. They're both pretty much the same guitar with different head stocks.

A Custom Shop (Nashville) 1959 Reissue dot neck has a current market value of approx $3,500. (pre-owned) The 1963 block necks are around the same. You can buy a beautiful H535 pre owned for approx $1,500. They're both pretty much the same guitar with different head stocks.

[Hammertone]

Why not compare a 535 to a Gibson USA ES-335 and an H150 to a Gibson USA Les Paul Standard?
Aren't the Heritage ones still cheaper than the Gibson USA ones at resale?

[Patrick2]

Why not compare a 535 to a Gibson USA ES-335 and an H150 to a Gibson USA Les Paul Standard?
Aren't the Heritage ones still cheaper than the Gibson USA ones at resale?

Yes, they are. My post was in response to Klatu's comments that Heritage guitars' pre owned selling prices are approaching Gibson's. That's only true when comparing apples to oranges. When comparing apples to apples . . as in comparing Heritage to Gibson Custom Shop Reissue models . . Heritage guitars' prices aren't even near as expensive on the pre owned market.

[Hammertone]

Why not compare a 535 to a Gibson USA ES-335 and an H150 to a Gibson USA Les Paul Standard?Aren't the Heritage ones still cheaper than the Gibson USA ones at resale?

Yes, they are. My post was in response to Klatu's comments that Heritage guitars' pre owned selling prices are approaching Gibson's. That's only true when comparing apples to oranges. When comparing apples to apples . . as in comparing Heritage to Gibson Custom Shop Reissue models . . Heritage guitars' prices aren't even near as expensive on the pre owned market.

Apples to apples because of the smaller quantities produced, comparable hand operations, wood selection and so forth - I can see that. But I have found that almost all of the Heritage 535/150 models are more comparable to Gibson US models in terms of the size and feel of their necks.

[Patrick2]

If ordering new, Heritage will make you any neck you want. If buying used, the necks got noticably thicker after 2007 or so in response to all the Gear Page types insisting on baseball bat "50's necks." I've had a 1990 575, a 2004 Super Eagle, a 2008 Groovemaster, and a 2010 525. Personally, I prefer the older standard pre-2007 Heritage necks as a perfect goldilocks balance. Though it's obviously not a dealbreaker for me.

I think Patrick's point also referred to production techniques as well as volume. Aren't the non-custom shop Gibbie solid bodies made with CNCs these days? If so, the Custom Shop would be more comparable in terms of hand made (factory) built.

Curious that Heritage changed their archtops more compared to the Gibson equivilent, in terms of body width and length or the floating center block on the laminates, than the solid bodies. Wondering if that's because markets were more insistant everything be exactly like a 59 Les Paul, whether it makes sense or not.

Hi ingeneri. You've been around Heritage long enough to know that the last thing in the world that the "powers that be" at Heritage ever react to, is what the markets are insistent of . . "whether it makes sense or not". Marv, Jim and Ren are pretty much like the engineers at Mercedes Benz. It really doesn't matter too much what the buying public wants . . . they know what the public needs . . which is other wise known as bull headedness. Heck man, just their lack of willingness to re design what the vast majority of the market believes is an ugly head stock design will confirm they turn a deaf ear to market demands.

The changes implemented in the arch tops and semis from Heritage, were implemented because those three guys believed them to be better and improved designs over what they were doing while they were at Gibson. For example, in the case of our mutually beloved Super Eagles vs the iconic Super 400s . . they were dead nut on correct. Playing an 18" SE . . (well, they're actually more like 17-3/4") is even more comfortable than playing a 17" L5. The shorter body and the 3" depth makes a huge difference in comfort.

Look at the change they made in the location of the cord input on both type guitars. On the arch tops, it's through the end block for a tremendous increase in strength and decrease in damage to the rim location, where it is on the Gibsons. On their semis, it is on the rim (reinforced on the inside of the rim) to eliminate damage to the top, as it is located on the Gibsons. This was done because those guys saw far to many tops destroyed on 335s because somebody's bass player stepped on the guitar player's cord.

The only reaction I've ever seen Heritage make to market demand from Gibson-ites, was to implement to long neck tenon design on the H150 and H53* series. That change took huge efforts and extensive conversations between myself, Marv, Jim and Vince. Vince and I were insistent that while not necessary from a strength and structural integrity stand point . . . from a marketing stand point it made good sense to do it. Jim finally caved and said to Marv . . "well, hell . . we can do that easily enough". Marv said . . . "yeah . . I guess".

But, they don't see the need for hot hyde glue over Tite Bond and they don't believe that truss rod condoms impair tone (neither do I). They actually use plastic straws available at any super market to slip over the truss rod to protect it from seepage of the tite bond glue binding up the truss rod. They also refuse to switch to a faster drying lacquer to speed up drying time and decrease wait time on a new build. They use the same formulation . . possibly even the same vendor from many decades ago. Likewise, they refuse to use "Mother Of Toilet Seat" for the finger board inlays . . opting for real MOP.

IMO, they really do it right at Heritage . . not withstanding ignoring what the market wants. The guys and gals at the Gibson Custom Shop are hand cuffed a bit by having to remain true to era/period correctness on the Reissues. But, both entities produce fantastic guitars.

[2bornot2bop]

Playing an 18" SE . . (well, they're actually more like 17-3/4") is even more comfortable than playing a 17" L5. The shorter body and the 3" depth makes a huge difference in comfort.

I for one couldn't be happier that more people don't realize how comfortable SE's are to play, for that makes SE's more affordable for those of us who love 'em!

[Bluedawg]

Look at the change they made in the location of the cord input on both type guitars. On the arch tops, it's through the end block for a tremendous increase in strength and decrease in damage to the rim location, where it is on the Gibsons. On their semis, it is on the rim (reinforced on the inside of the rim) to eliminate damage to the top, as it is located on the Gibsons. This was done because those guys saw far to many tops destroyed on 335s because somebody's bass player stepped on the guitar player's cord.

.

The new Gibson L5 Premiers (floating pickups) I've played had the cord input through the end block as well ...

I haven't looked that close at the new L5 CES or WES cord inputs.