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well why are you telling us this?
Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
as Jim Morrison said to the cop just before being arrested - "say your thing man".Last edited by fumblefingers; 07-18-2014 at 12:59 AM.
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07-18-2014 12:54 AM
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Just to let everyone know. I got a 2nd opinion and it wasn't good. It seems the truss rod cannot be tightened (it already has 3 washers) and once side of the neck (treble side) is slightly under bowed and the other side (bass side) is very underbowed. The tech told me he can do that repair that they do on Martin's (refretting and sanding the neck) to get it straighter (the truss rod would still be messed up) but it's a crap shoot if it would work or not...That repair would be 400-500 bucks. I called the Gibson Repair/restoration shop in Nashville and they said to put in a new truss rod 1400 or a brand new neck 2000. I asked the guy what would he do and he said he'd get rid of the guitar (but letting whoever know of the problem of course).
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That sucks. I'm sorry to hear it.
Unfortunately you can only "get rid of" the guitar, because nobody looking for a 335 at market value will buy something so compromised. 335's are not exactly rare, so it's a no-brainer.
If it were me, I'd probably put it up on Ebay with a no reserve auction starting at $500, describing the problem in objective terms without a lot of judgment or speculation about what might be possible, or impossible, to do. Then I'd go shopping for something new.
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Yikes. That's far more than I would have expected for that type of repair, but if the neck is starting to twist like you say it is, a new guitar might be the best way to go regardless.
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I strongly recommend Brian Monty for a re-neck. Originally Posted by fireman12engine
He'll use the existing fingerboard, headstock overlay, tuners.
Under $1,000.
He has done MANY Gibson restorations and conversions in addition to building his most excellent line of electric and archtop guitars.
Monty Guitars
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I'm sorry that the whole thing has tuned out so badly for you. I went through something very similar many years ago and it really was a miserable experience. I hope that however you choose to move forward, it works out better for you than this has.
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If I may ask:
We have the "what" - the truss rod can not be further tightened OR there is no action upon the neck as the rod is further tightened.
Has anyone described the "why" - as in why is this the situation?
- Have you reached the ends of the threads?
- Does further tightening drive the upper end of the rod (nut/washer) into the neck wood?
- What exactly is not happening as we might normally expect?
I only ask because I once got in a Verythin JS Hofner that had a failing truss rod due to the failure of the "shelf" at the upper end of the routed channel, so there was no surface to press against as you tightened the nut.
I removed the 1st fret inlay and much FB and neck wood behind it. Then re-bult the surface against which the truss rod bears. Worked great +++, was fast and remarkably easy to do.
Anyway, nothing beats the "what", except for maybe the "what" plus the "why".
It is maybe rare, but there are sometimes unusual, or unexpected, solutions to problems
In my opinion.
And for Fumbles:
I deleted my earlier suggestion that political posts (including various politically-inspired dull/obvious angles) should include a pic of the actual person making the political statement. This might possibly reduce the perceived anonymity factor in web gas-baggery. We then would not know your personal info (which one may reasonably not want on a web forum), but we could include the general layout of the persona as we do in-person.
I suspect it would be most enlightening. Or maybe we would all end up posting spurious self-portraits that were actually pictures of Hasselhoff, to sort of lend gravitas to our deeply inspiring political views.
Had to look up how to spell "Hasselhoff". Man, having that in my browser history would be almost more embarrassing than if "Ayn Rand" was in there,...
Ooops, had to look up "embarrassing" too - crazy double letters in English.
Chris
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Sorry to hear it's that bad. I was hoping you'd find a solution.
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Hmm.. lack of anonymity. Nope. I'm not owning every dumb post I've made in this forum.
OP: If the neck is twisted, sounds grim. Fortunately, Hammertone is very well informed and I would take his suggestion in a heartbeat.
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Just my opinion but there's no way I'd put close to $1000 into a repair on a 335' especially one that would leave it with a non-original neck. That's way past the point that I'd move on to a different guitar. Originally Posted by Spook410
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I just thought about this again for a moment... The tech we've all been talking about who is good, maybe even great, but might not have wanted to repair the 335, etc. - this person has worked on this guitar for years... he never told you about the 3 washers on the truss rod in all the time you've owned it and used him? Originally Posted by fireman12engine
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bad news indeed, I would probably put the 1000$ easily only if the guitar had any sentimental value and would anyway be a keeper !
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I agree with this. I see it this way . . the OP said repeatedly that he loved the guitar and was seriously stressed out that he may not be able to keep it. Don't what he paid for it . . but if he fully discloses its issues, as described. . he's not going the get much more than 400 to 500 bucks for it . . if that. So, he'll need at least another grand plus what ever he gets for the guitar to get another decent 335. So, I'd put the $1,000 into a good repair on this one and keep the guitar that I've already grown sentimentally attached to. Originally Posted by vinlander
I still can't accept that this existing neck can't be salvaged. Not even sure why someone would recommend a new TR if the existing one hasn't snapped? There's a reason within the neck and/or truss rod cavity why the exisiting truss ros has maxed out without taking the bow out of the neck. The tech's that the OP has spoken with so far seem to have expressed opinions on the costs associated with fixing the effect that the cause and had on the neck . . without once mentioning the cuase which creatred the ill effect.
Pete Moreno, Kalamazoo, MI. Package it up nice and secure . . ship it off to Pete for a cost of no more than $40. Let Pete assess it. My guess is that Pete could do a repair of both cause and effect for under $400. Pete typically charges $1 per minute for most repairs. Pete is a former Gibson guy . . now has his own shop and also does some of the more involved repair work for Heritage.
Pete Moreno restores stars' guitars - Video | MLive.com
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Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
I seriously doubt that it would be so enlightening. The world seems to be sharply divided in almost every region. That means that we have millions of people from every walk of life falling into entrenched positions. Attempts at stereotyping would be obliterated by sheer numbers and diversity of individuals.
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Assuming it's only worth $400-$500 (which might be high and doesn't include selling cost), it seems would be worth the $1000 given you would have new frets, a properly as-new set neck, and a neck profile of your own choosing. 335 necks are always too slim for me. One with a baseball bat neck would be great.
All conjecture.. always easy to spend other people's money.
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Originally Posted by vinlander
Originally Posted by Patrick2
Yes, that's why I made the suggestion. Originally Posted by Spook410
It's certainly worth the $1.00 for the phone call.
All this reminds me of a Monty Montrealer that I should have gotten renecked - here's a ten-year-old picture of it:Last edited by Hammertone; 07-19-2014 at 02:06 AM.
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Dan Erlewine's Guitar Repair Services Originally Posted by fireman12engine
Contact him. He'll get everything fixed (including the trussrod, which is NOT such the big deal it's been made to appear) for (I'm guessing) less than $ 600,00.
I knew that Gibson repair prices were hi, but asking for more money to re-neck your guitar than what it costs a brand new instrument is an insult to a person's intelligence. Specially when such a fail instrument shouldn't've passed the QC in the first place.
I feel for ya, man. Take it to Dan... seems that he's one of the last few honest persons still in business.
HTH,Last edited by LtKojak; 07-19-2014 at 01:57 AM.
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Amazing to advise specific prices for a repair (to be done by someone else), opinions on the specific shortfalls of individuals and companies, and the state of the guitar repair industrial complex - all with absolutely no idea as to what is the actual cause of the described problem.
Ah, the web.
I still think a pic of the person making some comments would be illustrative. But yeah Fumbles - maybe not actually enlightening.
Chris
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Oh, and in my opinion:
Someone took the OP's description of an unspecified difference in the bow on one side of the neck vs. the other and leapt to there being a "twist" in the neck.
(The miracle is that someone did not then claim this was a conspiracy to send bad corporate output to Britain, somehow.)
When dealing with piles of guitars, it is actually quite common to notice there to be a slight difference in the relief on one side of a neck vs. the other.
In general, it is not a usable immediate (and unmeasured, and unseen) conclusion to say there is a problematic twist.
Broadly stated:
If the difference is very slight, you can ignore it.
If there is a more notable difference (let's say getting up toward ~ .005" or something) and it means more relief on the bass side, then for most players this is a practical accident.
If there is notably more relief on the treble side, then a bit of fret leveling with some care and experience can take care of things.
Chris
Last edited by PTChristopher2; 07-19-2014 at 08:49 AM. Reason: spelling
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Any tech guys want to buy it?
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The fact that certain individuals can't figure out what the problem could be, even having not one, but two quite accurate assessments made by two different professionals, obtained by actually looking at the instrument in question, it doesn't necessarily mean that certain persons with actual many years of professional experience in this specific field of expertise, with roughly over thousand instruments passed on the workbench are confident enough to give an educated guess solely based on his peer's professional opinions and own knowledge. Originally Posted by PTChristopher2
Yet, they assume that if they can't figure it out, nobody else can.
Ah, the Web...
Last edited by LtKojak; 07-19-2014 at 09:17 AM.
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Pretty funny.
I assume that many competent people can figure out the cause of the problem. It has simply not been described here on a forum.
The funny part is the amazing conclusions, and cost estimates for a third-party repair.
It is a silly thing sometimes.
If you can explain the actual cause of the OP's symptoms (and how someone thousands of miles away will specifically repair it for 600 USD), I would be certainly most educated.
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PTChris> (Oh . . by the way . . as you can see, I found the ">" key. Now I no longer have to turn my keyboard upside down to get that symbol . . as you suggested I should do when I told you I could only find the "<" key. But, I do appreciate your instructions ((of approx 1 year ago)) to do so)
I mentioned last night that I found it odd that two competent techs . . (well, I know Paul Unkert is competent, very much so . . but I don't know who the second tech was, so I'm just assuming that "The Fire Engine" made sure he got a second opinion from someone at least as competent as Paul "The Guitar Guy" Unkert) and both techs spoke to the effect but not the cause. I see that you commented on that as well. But, the reason I pointed it out was what I picked up on in your post explaining how you looked into why the TR was maxing out on a guitar that you were asked to fix . . and discovered that the TR shoulder had erroded or disintegrated. It's clear that you recognized the problem . . but instead of just fixing the problem, you wanted to see what caused it. That's as it should be.
When someone walks into a repair shop holding his guitar in one hand . . and the snapped off head stock in the other . . there's no need to look any further into the cause of the problem. That wasn't the case in this situation. Guitar techs are doctors, in a sense. Medicine is medicine, in a sense. If a person walks into a doctors office with a bullet hole in his ass, the doctor need not look into the cause. It's perfectly clear that the guy was way too slow climbing out of the window of the bedroom of a married woman he was banging . . and the woman's husband popped a cap in his dumb ass. So now, all the doctor needs to do is dig the bullet out and stitch the dumb ass' ass up. On the other hand, if a guy walks into a doctors office and says he's been vomitting violently for over a week, the doctor shouldn't just give him a few Tums and send him home. He needs to find the cause of that effect.
Regarding people estimating a maximum out of pocket expense while not being a very savvy guitar tech and not even having the guitar in hand . . that's a pretty easy one. Not withstanding Gibson's absurd price qoute of $2,000 for a re-neck . . . many of us just assumed what would be the max cost for the most extreme repair, which would be a re-neck. In my own personal assessment as it relates to Pete Moreno, Pete has done work for me . . and for many of the Heritage Owners Club crew, including my very good friend Dr. Mark Goetting. Pete could definitely do this repair and would probably be embarassed to charge more than $400 or $500 to do it. That's why I recommended that The Fire Engine package it up and send it off to Pete for an eval. Shipping costs to and from Pete's shop, if he elected to have Pete return the guitar to him without doing the repair. . would be $80 or less. If I absolutely loved a guitar, I'd have no problem investing $80 to see if it's salvagable.
I also recommended Steve Hayes of Steve's Studio. Steve's one of the best I know . . and I know many. He's only about an hour drive away from the OP's Ocean County location . . unless it's way south Ocean County . . then possibly an hour and a half. Definitely worth the drive. Steve would and could effectively do both . . assess the cause, eliminate it and then correct the effect/problem.
However, I sense that the OP is no longer stressed . . and has thrown in the towel on this guitar and just wants to be rid of it. Maybe it just didn't mean as much to him as he though it did.?.?
One thing I never did drill down on . . is this a production model ES335? Or is it a Custom Shop Reissue?
Oh well, gotta get my ass off to the gym, or I'll never get it done today.
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It's been my experience that even extremely talented techs and luthiers are disinclined to take on work that may risk an unhappy customer. If they are busy anyway, and don't really need the work, it's easier to suggest selling the instrument than opening a can of worms. This happens less, IMO, when price is no object, or when the customer is a good friend, or at least a regular satisfied customer with a history a pricey work done. It's reasonable, and ethical. If you haven't bonded with the guitar, sell it.
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I do agree that the more skilled and talented a tech is . . the more successful he is. The more successful he is, the more work he gets. That usually leads to higher prices and longer lead times. However, it's only reasonable and ethical to decline work if they're totally upfront about why they're declining it. A conversation something like the following would be more appropriate, reasonable and ethical; Originally Posted by SuperFour00
"Hmmm . . . I can clearly see what the problem is . . and I'm sure I could find out what caused it . . then, fix the cauuse and the problem. But, it's really more than I can (care to) take on right now. I'm really swamped and customers are screaming to get their guitars back. It would take me at least 2 months to even get to look at it . . then, probably a month or so to make it right. Unfortunately, I can't really give you an estimate on how much it would cost to fix the guitar and make it perfect, until I can look at it . . and as I said, that'll be at least 8 weeks or so with all of the work I have in front of yours. If you want to leave it here for that long, I'll take the job on. But, if you choose not to have the repair done after I give you the price, I'll need you to agree to a 1 hour labor/evaluation charge. My hourly labor rate is X dollars."
Then, the customer can choose to leave it . . or go else where. But, both techs saying nothing more than . . "you should get rid of the guitar" . . pretty much indicates that they feel it can't be repaired. As I said before . . pretty much anything can be repaired on any guitar.
I wonder what those two techs would have told Bill Munroe if he walked into their shop with his beloved 1923 F5 mando all in bits and pieces and stuffed into a garbage bag and asked . . "can you fix this?"
Bill Monroe : People.com
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