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I'm looking to get that Johnny Smith etc tone in an amp, armed with my Samick HJ-650 (L5 copy). Any advice? Tubes, or are there good solid state standins, or are most solid amps good in that department anyway? I swear the guitarists in the old days had a bit warmer/chimier sound, but maybe that was just the condenser mics talking. Anyway, I like it. Actually haven't listened to enough of more modern guitarists to know exactly what they sound like, aside from vaguely knowing they're a bit more mid-range, by and large.
Also, I want to spend about $300 max, and just want a bedroom amp, no gigs on the horizon. Have been playing acoustic music exclusively for about 20 years so it's fun reading up on amps etc again. It's also amazing all the little tube amps you can buy these days - Fender even has a "Pawn Shop" line, all with that cool tweed coverings and retro style. I try and hear what those sound like on YouTube too, but the demonstrations all seem geared towards rock/blues types. Always liked how most of those little amps only had the one or two knobs, these modern modeling amps are ridiculous, all those options.
Luckily I live near Portland Oregon which has a good few shops with lots of amps for sale so can make the rounds and hear these things in person, but would like to know what others have in the way of advice.
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05-06-2014 09:21 PM
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Wasn't Johnny Smith an Ampeg guy? If not, he was photographed with the "Fountain" amp and used in Ampegs advertising.
You can find mid 60s Reverberockets for around 550 to 600. That is more than you want to spend, but they are superb Jazz amps for that period.
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You are right about that amplified sound of the fifties; we've admired and sought it for over one-half century, LOL. I started playing in 1959 and ONLY tube amplifiers were available. I didn't own a solid-state amplifier until 1970 (A Standel, which I used for less than one year).
I'm not current on vacuum tube amplifier state of the art so I'm sort of wingin' it here ... The second edition of a FREE e-book I wrote treating this topic is available at:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sutb3baaajypfzp/5jAs6MErWU
(I'm not peddling this work, it's a labor of love from which I derive no financial reward and spend a GREAT deal of my time replying to e-mails with questions about the subject material. The design and technical topics may not be of any interest but the first few chapters discuss the derivation and development of vacuum tube amplifiers. Some of the advantages of these devices are discussed along with some of the unfortunate modifications made by those who have little understanding of the consequences. Be patient with the downloading process - the book is over 350 pages !)
But getting back to your question, one of my favorite "project" amplifiers which can be obtained for minimal $$$ (if you can find one) is the discontinued Epiphone "Galaxie 25" sold about ten years ago. This amplifier was comparable to the Fender Deluxe Reverb, Ampeg Reverberocket and other amplifiers designed for club use during the 'fifties and early 'sixties. To me it is the most desirable type of amplifier combining reasonable weight (less than fifty pounds), reasonable power (about 22 watts) and reasonable reliability.
The amplifiers have a deserved reputation for nasty, excessive 60 Hz hum. I have a gifted, new in the unopened box, model and was astounded at the amount of hum when I switched it on. The solution for reducing the hum is fairly simple and described in the above book. The cause is cheap Chinese vacuum tubes - especially in the preamplifier stage - that are inconsistent due to poor quality control.
Given about ten minutes and modest expense, anyone can correct the deficiency of this little amplifier and make it a great performer. I obtain about the same quality of sound from this amplifier as my '62 Ampeg and several mid sixties fenders with the advantage of a reasonably reliable design using modern parts.
Of course this option may be unlikely in which case you may want to look around at used Blues Juniors and the like. There are a couple of small Peaveys that are also pretty good performers and apparently available at reasonable prices. I'm not expert at prices, BTW, my amplifier needs were satisfied many years ago by the seven that I currently own.
Insofar as solid-state equivalents, I haven't found many that sound as nice as even inexpensive tube amplifiers. I have two alternatives that I find useful. The first is an old Sunn Beta Lead amplifier (NOT recommended for the physically challenged !) that I bought new in 1981. It is 100 watts (at 1 % distortion - unbelievably clean for a guitar amplifier) but near 100 pounds in weight, approximately the same as my Fender Twin.
The Sunn has incredible headroom and can be adjusted for wonderful jazz tones - I think that the technology was far ahead of it's time. Discard this option if you are looking for an overdriven tone, however, I've not found any solid-state amplifiers that satisfactorily provide an equivalent to a vacuum tube amplifier.
These amplifiers are dirt-cheap, if they can be found. I've read of the heads picked up for $5 at garage sales, for example. The one that I own is a combo with two 12 inch speakers and, except for the weight, it's one of the best amplifiers that I've owned for clean jazz guitar reproduction. Similarly, the Roland Jazz Chorus can often be found at low prices and is a good, warm amplifier for jazz. Again, not suitable for overdriven tones.
About a decade ago my health deteriorated to the point that the big Sunn amplifier was impractical, even for moving from room to room in my home, LOL ! At that time I designed a small vacuum tube preamplifier that can be coupled to a solid-state amplifier to "warm up" the tone. The design, photos and so forth are included in the book referenced above. If you are reasonably handy, this is a good way to get close to the tonal qualities that you seek.
Solid state amplifiers of reasonable power levels are dirt cheap in the used market. A vacuum tube preamplifier combined with one of these can provide good tone, good power with minimal expense.
Another option that I used often in the past, although it is not cost-effective now, is simply miking an inexpensive Fender Champ through a PA system. I hasten to add that I bought my Champ new for $80 and that option is sadly no longer available because I love that little amplifier.
In closing, I suggest that you download the book and skim through it - for insight if nothing else. You may glean some interesting and informative facts about vacuum tube amplifiers that may assist you in selecting one that is satisfactory.
Cheers !
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I suspect that a bit of that sound was provided by the tape machines that were state of the art for the era. To my ears, digital recording tends to suck warmth. I really enjoy listening to the recordings made in Van Gelder's studio in Jersey.
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No kidding, about Van Gelder's work - fantastic!
Originally Posted by mongrel
Good interview with him here if you haven't seen it -
Interview: Rudy Van Gelder (Part 1) - JazzWax
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+1. Originally Posted by mongrel
many of those recordings were made with a Fender Tweed Deluxe (5E3 circuit). You can get good used recently made clones for under $700 if you are patient. or a newer clone for $900 or so if you are not. If you are skilled with electronics you can build one from one of the many kits available from Mojotone, etc. for considerably less.Last edited by TSP; 05-07-2014 at 09:56 AM. Reason: add info
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You sticking with humbuckers?
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When I think "50's [jazz] amp tone"... I ain't thinking JS. And he's my FAVORITE. His tone was cleaner than alot of folks. When I think 50's amp tone, I think a tad dirty, and full; not "clear"... JS was clear. Charlie Christian was NOT. EH-150/EH-185... modern day, Vintage47.
FWIW, I'm going to pick up a Champion 600 for JS tone... this guy seems to get a good JS tone out of his (not that he's trying to get a JS tone, just that it's very similar):
When I think 50's amp tone, I think more like this:
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I went for the Fender Pawnshop Excelsior! Pro, but it's a pretty heavy and loud amp. Might also not give you the tone you're looking for, and you gotta use the knobs on your guitar as an extension of the amp. Go down to Portland music and check 'em out (it's where I got mine.) If you want to hear mine in action, come out to the Secret Society Ballroom 6-8pm or Circa 33 9pm-12am on Sat May 24. Both shows are free (we get a guarantee). We do all the old reefer tunes from the 20-50's, so it's a bit of a raucous show
The Excelsior is kinda like a scaled up Champion 600.
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The Excelsior IS like a scaled up C600, but without the blackface tone stack.... more CC than JS, using my examples above
DG.... I'd love to see a setlist!
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Thanks for the book randyc, will give those first chapters a going over. Will look around for those Epiphone amps, I also used to send my bass through a Sunn Solaris 100 watt head, so I'm familiar with their pull-arm-out-of-socket quality.
Charlie Christenson didn't live long enough to be properly recorded, everything back then sounds a bit muddled, with some semi-exceptions, but nothing like the clarity engineers later developed. Were other guitarists caught on tape later on with a gritty sound? Most sound very clean, perhaps not so chimy as JS, near as I can tell anyway, I'm still a neophyte here. Regarding sound for most music I've always felt that engineers had pretty much perfected recording by the late 50s, I really can't imagine bettering what you heard on the best LPs of that time.
Thanks for the headsup about where to shop, D.G., am planning to hit various stores on Saturday. The Champion 600 caught my eye, always loved those little rigs. Glad to hear someone getting a clean sound out of one, all the demonstrations I could find on YT were quite gutbucket.
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Yes, Charlie Christian was way ahead of his time... he had 50's amp tone before he died in 1942! Originally Posted by ruger9
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Charlie Christian died of tuberculosis at age 25 btw. Great loss for music. He used a Gibson amp.
Re' cheaper amps to get a nice classic tube tone, here are a couple of thoughts: Epiphone Valve Jr - simple but nice-sounding amp for home; Fender SCXD or SCX2; Peavey Classic 30. The Peavey is pretty much equivalent to the midrange Fender stuff. Rather heavy and LOUD.
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I don't know why you wouldn't consider Johnny Smith's tone a 50's tone. The quintessential JS/ Stan Getz session was recorded in 1952 (with a Gibson GA-75 from what I've gathered from various interviews). Charlie Christian recorded in the 30's. To the OP I would say to look out for a tweed clone. Something like 5e3 or similar. They don't have a lot of clean on tap but what they do have is great. I'm partial to the TV front era amps myself. Also, most of the sounds you're going for were single coil pickups. So those guys were using fairly dark/warm amps with brighter pickups. Just something to think about.
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True enough, when I say "50s" I don't LITERALLY mean 50s. I mean "old". LOL Old amp tone: the Gibsons, primarily. Lower headroom, middier sound. Fender tweeds certainly fit into that category, but, interestingly enough, Fender has never been big with most jazz guys, from what I have seen (George Benson aside, lol)
Amps started out middy with low headroom, gradually becoming louder, cleaner, with less mids... the Fender line is a good example:
low-powered tweeds > high-powered tweeds > blonde/browns > blackface (then silverface, but most don't like to discuss the "CBS years" LOL)
It seems "old amp tone" is usually referring to either the old Gibson EH-type tones, or Oahu, or early, low-power Fender Tweeds (not the Twin or Bassman). also Valco/Supro, but again those seem to be more rockers cranking them up than jazz guys using them.
Vintage47 specializes in this kind of tone, and Swart's AST was "inspired by" the Gibson/Supro camp...
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And while recording techniques weren't great the further back in time you go, I don't hear Benny Goodman's horns or Nat King Cole's piano sounding "muddy" at all.... that middy, low-headroom tone was coming out of the amps- it was simply the best amplification WAS at that time, for the relatively-new "electrified guitar." (but again, yes- we're talking 30s-40s, not so much 50s)
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Originally Posted by ruger9
The Excelsior IS like a scaled up C600, but without the blackface tone stack.... more CC than JS, using my examples above
DG.... I'd love to see a setlist!
Seriously OT.
The most straight out reefer tunes:
Blue Drag
I's a Muggin'
Killin' Jive
Knockin' Myself Out
Reeferman
The Spinach Song (I Didn't Like It the First Time)
The Stuff is Here
Sweet Marijuana Brown
Viper Mad
Viper's Dream
You's a Viper
When I Get Low I Get High
Who Put the Benzedrine (In Mrs. Murphy's Ovaltine)
Some tunes that could be considered viper tunes if you look at 'em right:
Django's Castle
I Wanna Be Evil
I'll See You in My Dreams
Limehouse Blues
Oriental Shuffle
Smoke Rings
Straighten Up and Fly Right
A few dirty blues/novelty swing tunes like:
Diga Diga Doo
Egyptian Ella
Gimme a Pigfoot
Let's Get Drunk and Truck
Mama Don't Want No Peas and Rice and Coconut Oil
And finally a bunch of vintage sounding originals. It's a fun band and the most amusing thing about it is no one in band partakes, even though 2 of our members are from Vancouver WA where the stuff is legal
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Gimme a pigfoot is a fave. Love that woman. What a voice. I've never heard of this "reefer" sub-genre before...lol
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Originally Posted by ruger9
Lot's of fun stuff. Reminds a person that jazz used to be considered dangerous and created by undesirables...
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I've been chasing the Johnny Smith tone for years. IMO a big part of JS's sound is the guitar, not the amp. The carved top and the floating pickup are a big deal for his sound.
His small combos and recording techniques don't require him to play very loudly, so naturally he's a little cleaner, and the guitar is a relatively bigger piece of the equation.
His amp settings are close to flat EQ. I read a Johnny Smith interview once (linked somewhere on this site, thank you!) where he advised to ALWAYS turn the bass control on any Fender amp to zero! Really, he said that, and he followed his own advice, and it really works. (And it is consistent with the models of Fender EQ that have been discussed here recently.) I think the EQ is more important than the particular amp for his sound.
Occasionally I use a Baggs Para Acoustic DI straight into a PA, and I can get pretty close to his tone. When I use my Fender Deluxe (reissue blackface), I set the bass to 1 and the treble to 2 (believe it or not, that's close to flat EQ), volume at 4-5, then slowly roll up the guitar volume. The slight treble roll-off inherent in low guitar volume setting is helpful. When I use my Polytone, I have mids and treble straight up, but roll off the bass to 9 o'clock.
Experiment. Play. Have fun.
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Thanks so much, kamlapati, those are great pointers. I did find this Johnny Smith Interview where he talks about amps at the end, how rolling off the bass cures the feedback problem for one thing. Couldn't find another interview that was quite so in depth. Someone on the boards here mentioned that he plugged straight into the board on records, too.
Mostly I threw in JS's name as an exemplar of the type of sound I like best. Most everyone from that era had a special kind of sound, courtesy those tubes I suppose.
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Totally agree about the EQ. Originally Posted by kamlapati
I cut the bass on my Fender to 1 or 2 at stage volume while keeping the mids above middle and roll the guitar tone knob down to 2-3 to get the sound I desire which is a nice dark "50's"-ish tone.
Makes a big difference to me.
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