Guitar problem, fret buzz?

[AmundLauritzen]

I'm having a problem with my gypsy jazz guitar.

One day when I was playing I noticed the high E string would buzz against the frets.
This happens most prominently from the 7th to the 10th frets, but also further up the neck.

The problem is not on any of the other strings.

I know there are many people on this forum who know a lot about guitar setup and all that, so maybe anybody can help me solve this problem?

[PTChristopher2]

Hi Amund,

These things are definitely solvable, but can take a while on a forum with MANY of back and forth questions vs. 30 seconds of looking at the guitar if it was in-hand.

So rather than bug you to detailed with detailed questions, I'll just suggest what I (for all that maters) would do if I had the guitar here. Presumably others can offer very useful alternate suggestions.

1. Check the nut height. This is never really done with a feeler gauge at the first fret. Such an ill-conceived measurement would not tell you just about the nut. It would be affected by relief and bridge height as well.

Often the nut is too high, which means that the nut can be lowered some, which means that the same "action" can be set up with more fret clearance than you have now. I know this is not your specific described problem, but if you do this a few hundred times you take the whole guitar into account. It is a much faster route to making it play as well as it can. And I have yet to hear anyone complain about overall improvement beyond the specific problem.

2. Look at the relief across all strings. It is rarely even. More relief on the treble side can give the symptom you describe, buzzes up high on the high E.

3. Check the current "action" height, typically viewed at the 12th fret. Checking action is pointless if you do not already know the status of the nut and the relief. Note that we are only about 10 seconds into the process here.

4. Now consider the general situation. If the nut is slightly high, and there is a bit too much relief on the treble side of the FB, you may already have found some contributors to your problem. With the nut too high and the relief excessive, the bridge might be far lower than it may seem, which leads to buzz up high.

But,...

5. Check the general levelness of the frets, especially along the E string. Sometimes a single higher fret can give buzzes on a number of lower frets (especially with too much relief and a low bridge). There can also be a local slight hump in the FB. This can come and go with seasonal change. There can also be a slight dip in the FB, also possibly changing with the seasons.

I use the string itself to check the FB levelness. A straight edge can VERY easily lead to finding humps that are in fact not there if it is held even slightly off the path of the string. Many find great personal comfort in using a straight edge, and it is pretty pointless to suggest otherwise I suppose.

6. Look AGIAN for single high or low frets. They can be easy to miss. A given fret may be high or low only under a single string. It happens.

OK, so now it is 30 seconds later (well maybe a bit more than that if we looked at individual frets well enough). Time to suggest a plan.

If there are no particular fret problems, but the nut and relief could use some work, then I'd suggest adjusting the nut and the relief, which will both lower the action everywhere except for the upper playing positions. Then the bridge can be raised slightly.

If there are specific FB problems (like a mild hump around the 12th to 14th or something), then a minor fret dress and optimising the nut, relief, and bridge will usually do it.

The bridges on these guitars can easily (and invisibly) be built up slightly on the bottom, then re-fitted to the top. It's fast and easy enough to do.

All in my opinion. Others may feel differently. And certainly the opinion of a local luthier with your guitar in-hand is more valuable vs. some guy on a web forum.

Chris

[AmundLauritzen]

Thank you very much for that comprehensive reply!


I've re-checked and to be more specific, the problem happens mostly from fret 7-12.
It seems the string is too close in some areas.
I'm going to bet that it has to do with change in temperature, since I have made no drastic adjustments to the guitar setup for a long time.

These next observations probably reveal my absolute incompetence at guitar maintenance and such technical issues.

I did change strings yesterday to see if maybe that remedied the problem. I checked the nut and to my eyes, everything seemed fine. But then again I don't really know what to look for. I don't know how to go about changing the height of it, but maybe that would help?

As I mentioned, the guitar is a selmer style guitar. Eimers model Antique. Specs here: http://eimersguitars.com/shop/model-antique-oval-hole/

Wonderful instrument that I've had no problems with so far, so I bet some adjustments will take care of it.


I've not changed anything set-up wise since I received the guitar in early autumn 2013, except strings of course.
When changing strings I always tape down the bridge(using painters tape so the finish isn't damaged) to prevent it from moving around, so I doubt it has moved much if anything at all.

Because I've not tampered with the set-up, I bet you're right about the wood reacting to season change.
Problem is I'm too incompetent at this to detect the actual problem.

I'm going to mess around with it some more, see if I can figure it out.
If this posts contributes information that can help diagnose the problem, then I'd love some additional input.

[2bornot2bop]

Welcome back Chris. You were sorely missed!

[AlainJazz]

Amund, try giving the truss rod an eighth of a turn counter clock wise (if looking at the headstock from above). This will loosen the truss rod just a touch and might do the trick. I do this all the time on my guitars when seasonal change causes the wood to react. It's really easy to do and if it doesn't work you can always just turn it back.

[PTChristopher2]

OK Amund. This is all your fault,...

I have a fairly busy week coming up, but I'll definitely hang in there as long as you want with the daily step by step.

Worst case you and I will both learn some stuff and maybe even have some ideas about your guitar too.

OK, check the nut first. The idea is to see if the nut is at the same height as the frets.

In principle:

- The nut should be the same height as the frets.
- No, really.
- Well almost. There are two arguable reasons for it to be almost imperceptibly higher, but they are a little beyond this post, so,....
-The nut should be the same height as the frets.

1. Press each string down rather hard right in front of the nut. For new strings this takes out the slight rise in front of the nut since the strings have some stiffness that resists the direct pull to the bridge. For older strings it is just compulsive luthio-behavior.

2. Now press each string at normal playing pressure between the second and third frets.

3. Each string should clear the first fret by so little as to be almost invisible. I tap the string above the first fret. If you can not see the gap but can hear a slight click, you are there.

OR

Pluck the short string distance from the second fret to the nut. You will hear if it is in contact with the first fret or not.

Let us know how your nut is. So to speak. (Or to "2borornot2bop" that would be "так сказать")

Now check the neck relief.

a. Since we do not know the height of the nut, put a capo under modest tension at the first fret. Now press down at the fret at the top rim of the body.

b. Look at each string above the 7th fret and let us know the clearance. Something like the diameter of your B string is arguably normal. Each string may be different, so let us know what you see. Don't measure, just see which string diameter it most resembles.

So let's see what you see, the go on to looking at the high E in detail. You need no tools to check the frets in detail.

But order a pizza for the rest of us to have while we watch you and heckle.

****************

Seriously, this stuff is handy to go through on many guitars. It does not directly fix anything, but it gives you a very good idea of what is going on - always the fastest way to getting back to playing in my opinion.

In ALL CASES, the opinion of your local luthier may disagree with me. I strongly suggest following the opinion of the actual person holding your actual guitar vs. some jerk on a web forum.

Chris

[nosoyninja]

OK Amund. This is all your fault,...

I have a fairly busy week coming up, but I'll definitely hang in there as long as you want with the daily step by step.

Worst case you and I will both learn some stuff and maybe even have some ideas about your guitar too.

OK, check the nut first. The idea is to see if the nut is at the same height as the frets.

In principle:

- The nut should be the same height as the frets.
- No, really.
- Well almost. There are two arguable reasons for it to be almost imperceptibly higher, but they are a little beyond this post, so,....
-The nut should be the same height as the frets.

1. Press each string down rather hard right in front of the nut. For new strings this takes out the slight rise in front of the nut since the strings have some stiffness that resists the direct pull to the bridge. For older strings it is just compulsive luthio-behavior.

2. Now press each string at normal playing pressure between the second and third frets.

3. Each string should clear the first fret by so little as to be almost invisible. I tap the string above the first fret. If you can not see the gap but can hear a slight click, you are there.

OR

Pluck the short string distance from the second fret to the nut. You will hear if it is in contact with the first fret or not.

Let us know how your nut is. So to speak. (Or to "2borornot2bop" that would be "так сказать")

Now check the neck relief.

a. Since we do not know the height of the nut, put a capo under modest tension at the first fret. Now press down at the fret at the top rim of the body.

b. Look at each string above the 7th fret and let us know the clearance. Something like the diameter of your B string is arguably normal. Each string may be different, so let us know what you see. Don't measure, just see which string diameter it most resembles.

So let's see what you see, the go on to looking at the high E in detail. You need no tools to check the frets in detail.

But order a pizza for the rest of us to have while we watch you and heckle.

****************

Seriously, this stuff is handy to go through on many guitars. It does not directly fix anything, but it gives you a very good idea of what is going on - always the fastest way to getting back to playing in my opinion.

In ALL CASES, the opinion of your local luthier may disagree with me. I strongly suggest following the opinion of the actual person holding your actual guitar vs. some jerk on a web forum.

Chris

Most selmacs have a zero fret. Does this make any difference in your diagnostic process?

K

[PTChristopher2]

>>> Most selmacs have a zero fret. Does this make any difference in your diagnostic process?

Not at all. Of course you are checking the height of the zero fret instead of the nut, and the process to adjust the height is a little different, but otherwise it is the same.

That a given guitar has a zero fret does not at all guarantee that it will be the optimal height.

Strings "bed-into" the relatively soft fret, and each string can bed in to a different extent.

Also, frets can be come worn.

So you still do best to check this.

A zero fret is not exactly like a fret. Well, I suppose it is, but the string is constantly bearing down on the fretwire at a pressure far in excess of the occasional fingertip pressure on the other frets. So simply using the same wire does not at all guarantee an optimal situation.

Thanks for catching this. I looked at the link to Amund's guitar and indeed it has a zero fret as you expected (and I missed).

Chris

[PTChristopher2]

Hey Amund,

As "K" points out, you have a zero fret and not a traditional nut. Sorry I plowed ahead and did not think about this.

The principles are the same, and can be checked in the same manner.

But the nut on your guitar is designed to only control, the spacing of the strings. The height and the "zero" position on the scale are controlled by the zero fret.

This works every bit as well as a normal nut. It also has the same level of opportunity for minor trouble.

So please excuse my ham-fisted wording above and if you want - do check the height of your zero fret for each string along with the neck relief.

While we are at it, can you also identify if your guitar has an adjustable truss rod or not? It is not mentioned on the specifications list.

Chris

[AmundLauritzen]

Fixed it!

I contacted Leo Eimers, the luthier who built the guitar.

He said the Selmer type guitars are likely to react to weather conditions. I was advised to put veneers under both feet of the bridge, to raise the action. That worked!

He said a second option would be to adjust the truss rod. I had been searching for it prior, but he told me that this is accessed through the soundhole. It goes through the neck, but it's under the top of the guitar. A bit tricky, and I'm glad I didn't have to mess with that.

He said if none of that worked it was probably the neck relief that had changed, and that the frets needed work.


Luckily, option number 1 fixed it. Now the guitar projects powerfully like it should, and sounds and plays great!
I know there are others who play Selmer copies here, so hopefully they can learn something from this.


In retrospect, the winters in this part of Norway are extremely unpredictable. We can a freezing cold for a few days, with very "dry" air, only to have a week of rain with more humidity in the air. So, I constantly change the temperature in the house for comfort. Naturally, the guitars will react to that as well.

[PTChristopher2]

Glad to hear that it worked out to your satisfaction.

Chris

[nosoyninja]

Fixed it!

I contacted Leo Eimers, the luthier who built the guitar.

He said the Selmer type guitars are likely to react to weather conditions. I was advised to put veneers under both feet of the bridge, to raise the action. That worked!

...

Luckily, option number 1 fixed it. Now the guitar projects powerfully like it should, and sounds and plays great!
I know there are others who play Selmer copies here, so hopefully they can learn something from this.

Amund, do you find that raising the bridge makes your action too high? I mean, I'm glad you found something that works. But I always see people suggesting this as a "solution" to many problems with selmacs. Whenever I have tried it to fix things in this way, I find that the action turns out to be to high to play comfortably, requiring too much muscle tension from the left hand!

Over at the djangobooks forums, I see people do it all the time. As if it didn't make any other difference! "Yeah, just shim the bridge, you'll be fine". In my case, I was trying to make a Stimer pickup fit under the strings over the soundhole. Nothing could be played above the 14th fret because it bottomed out. If you discard the people that suggested "your doing it wrong", and those who said "Just get a 3,000 USD dupont", the rest just recommended raising the bridge somehow.

I can't imagine that no one notices the effect this could have on your technique/accuracy/stamina!

K

[PTChristopher2]

As "nosoyninja", a.k.a., "K" opens the proverbial can of worms,...

I am a huge fan of actually doing a real set-up when any problem arises. But there is always the concept that whatever works for a player is just fine, not matter how it may seem to be a likely, and significant, compromise.

But yeah, I hear what you are saying. I personally absolutely love playing a superbly set-up guitar, but for others this may not be an important thing at all. (Ojos que no ven, corazón que no siente. Which sounds rude in this context but I do not mean it that way at all.)

I can not count how many times a player has actually tried a really good set-up for the first time and looked shocked at how un-hard it can be to play the guitar.

But certainly, whatever is reported to work has to be considered a "solution" in my opinion.

Chris

[AmundLauritzen]

I'm just really dumb at guitar-technical stuff. And I'm always afraid to mess things up, which is why I bring my guitar to a luthier every now and then for a set-up.

I love playing a properly set-up guitar, which is also why I have a luthier look at it every now and then.
This is also why I appreciate your input so much, PTChristopher, because I pick up little nuggets of information from each of your posts that in turn make me gradually "less dumb" about guitar set-up and maintenance. I'm a slow learner, but I pick up stuff.

nosoyninja, I did put two veneers under each foot of the bridge. Although they are very thin, it raised the bridge enough to give me a higher action than I'm used to. I think of it like this: I have to work a bit harder now during the winter months, then when I remove them in springtime, it will be much easier to play again. I notice that with string gauges too. It's a bit harder initially, but when I go back again it will be much easier.

I find it strange that you could not fit a stimer under the strings. What guitar do you have? I usually play with medium-low action and I have always been able to fit the stimer without it touching the strings.

[PTChristopher2]

Hi Amund,

Thanks for the comments and the gracious parry to my comments about the setup.

Again, I am glad the setup is working for you as it is.

Chris

[nosoyninja]

nosoyninja, I did put two veneers under each foot of the bridge. Although they are very thin, it raised the bridge enough to give me a higher action than I'm used to. I think of it like this: I have to work a bit harder now during the winter months, then when I remove them in springtime, it will be much easier to play again. I notice that with string gauges too. It's a bit harder initially, but when I go back again it will be much easier.

I find it strange that you could not fit a stimer under the strings. What guitar do you have? I usually play with medium-low action and I have always been able to fit the stimer without it touching the strings.

Well. I also admire and respect PTChris' opinion alot, which is why I couldn't help but stick my nose in this post!

I have owned a Gitane Dg255, and a Paris Swing GG39, which is what I currently have. It is well known that the Stimers don't fit in most of these Asian built guitars. But I got the Paris swing specifically because it is supposed to fit the stimer pick up. Alas, after filing down the bridge to fit it to the top (something that is commonly needed on these guitars) I was back to the same ol' situation...

I did try raising the bridge on the gitane, and that's where I noticed the action was practically unplayable. Except I used popsicle sticks, not fancy veneer!!!

K