-
I'm very fortunate to own three classic jazz guitar amplifiers:
1981 Fender Princeton Reverb
1985 Roland Jazz Chorus JC-55
1987 Polytone Mini Brute IV
What amazes me is the fact that these three amps all sound great but they also all sound totally different from one another! You would think that what makes an amp a good jazz amp would be a specific tonal quality and that all good jazz amps would have that same tonal sound. But this is obviously not the case.
For example if you first play through the Polytone it has a wonderful warm and clear tone. But then if you switch over to the Roland the Polytone sounds like it's got a blanket thrown over it! The Roland is so much brighter and full range sounding. But then if you switch over to the Fender the Roland almost sounds harshly midrangy. Like the difference between the neck and bridge pickup. The Fender has that wonderful mid scooped sound with the clear and articulate chime tones across all strings.
It's amazing how these three classic jazz amps are so well revered but each have a totally different sound!
I would like to start a discussion on how this could be. Three great jazz amps that all sound totally different?! What is it that makes these amps so great? How can three totally different sounding amps all be great for jazz? Any stories on how the different tonal variations are helpful or hurtful?
This is my first post here and I thought it would be interesting to discuss this strange phenomenon!
Let the discussion begin!Last edited by jags; 12-21-2013 at 10:29 PM.
-
12-21-2013 10:11 PM
-
So.. I have a JC55.. a PR clone.. you are saying I should get a polytone.
That IS what you are saying right? Say it.. cmon. say it... DREW GET THE POLYTONE...
I heard you say it... I have witnesses... gotta go.
-
I like listening to instruments with the same range but different timbres, amps are like that, they make the same guitar sound like different instruments.
-
Wouldn't the Roland and Princeton be more considered classic "living room" jazz amps? I don't think many jazz guitarists used them as gigging amps.
-
Well I don't think it's a "strange phenomenon" any more than it's strange how some players like to play jazz on an ES-175, a Johnny Smith, or a Telecaster. Different strokes... chocolate, vanilla, pistachio. Many guitars and amps can be great in the hands of someone who appreciates them and makes the most of their inherent tonal qualities.
-
I guess you could consider them "living room" amps and I'm sure they have been used in many studios. None the less they are still classic jazz amps. Also tone wise the will be very similar to their bigger siblings like the Roland JC 120 and the Fender Twin Reverb.
Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Point being these amps and their bigger counterparts are well known for their use for jazz guitar but they have totally different tonal characteristics.
-
If someone gave me a choice to bring back home one of them for free I would take the Fender for sure.
-
What happens when you go from the Fender to the Polytone? I only ask because sometimes a/b testing has odd results. Originally Posted by jags
-
I actually have been doing that quite a bit lately. The best way I can describe it would be the Fender being "Hi-Fi" and the Polytone being "Lo-Fi". Or maybe like listening to the same song on FM versus AM radio. The Polytone is clean and warm but somewhat muffled with less deep lows or sparkling highs. The Fender is clean and sparkly with a lot of air and openness to the sound. The Polytone would look like this "/\" on a graphic EQ while the Fender would look like this "\/". Originally Posted by Andrew B.
Hope it all make sense!
-
The Fender Princeton Reverb is a $800 amp while the Polytone or Roland can be had for $300 each. Most definitely would take the Fender!! However it is nice to have the different tones available from having the 3 amps. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
-
The polytone should look more like "------", in theory. Unless you cut bass and treble and then mids will be boosted.
I would take the Polytone given it's a reliable one. I could live with the Princeton but only after quite a few mods.
-
Originally Posted by Andrew B.
I have both and to my ears the Fender is much more complex and dimensional. Polytone is a bit flat (almost lifeless) by comparison.
-
Nice first post. Welcome to the forum! It's a fun and interesting place and I've learned a great deal here!
Except that Jazz by definition has little respect for boundaries and is generally more rule-free than most other genres. Originally Posted by jags
To me, amps are another part of the instrument, and like guitars, each has its own unique voice. With multiple guitars and multiple amps the combinations are almost endless, and what I like today might not be what I like tomorrow. It's Jazz, experiment! Wheee!
I also have both... different tools for different jobs.
-
Maybe in theory but not in practice. I believe what gives the Polytone it's particular sound is the speaker-cabinet-electronics combination. I believe the type of speaker that they use has a very midrange response curve. The lows and highs are just not there like the Roland or Fender. The closed cabinet design might also contribute to this and possibly the electronics also. But that's what makes it a Polytone!! It's "Lo-Fi" characteristic is what gives it the warm midrange tone. Like I said earlier the Polytone sounds great on it's own but, when you A/B it against the other amps, it sounds like someone threw a blanket over it. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Of the 3 amps the Roland JC-55 has what I would consider a far flatter frequency response. The Roland puts it all there right in your face kind of tone. And of course the Fender has that mid scooped sound.
Nice to have the three options!
-
I have a Polytone, and I like it very much, but it definitely has a different sound and feel from a tube amp.
I think Polytones became popular because they're cheap, light, and nigh indestructible. I would gig with the Polytone, but I wouldn't use it in the studio.
-
+1 Very good description. Originally Posted by skiboyny
-
I am not en electronics expert but he polytone has an baxandall eq for sure, which means flat frequency with all knobs at noon. You don't have the highs and lows prominence but that does not mean "/\"... a flat frequency amp "---" compared to a fender sounds just like that: less highs and lows, more mids. Of course if you cut the treble and the low you'll get closer to "/\".
I am not sure the Polytone speakers are mid-haeavy but they are for sure dark - that also helps explaining the lack of treble compared to the Fender.
The Roland is, as far as I know, a blackface tone stack adapted to solid state. The reason they sound different from fenders are the PA style speakers I think... So not flat at all.
I have a mambo (polytone) and an henriksen / barbeq (fender) and I agree: nice to have options
-
As different as those amps may be, though, there's also quite a bit of overlap, and many people succeed in finding "their" sound through those three (and many others), especially neck-pickup jazz tones. Still, the only one of those three I'd ever want to own (and do) is the Princeton Reverb. If I encounter a JC (fairly frequently) or a Polytone (less frequently) in the wild, I can make it work, but I usually find it easier to get what I want out of a tube amp, i.e., a little warmth and a hint of break-up in my clean sound, and a nice singing, fat overdrive sound. Originally Posted by jags
John
-
The interesting thing about the Polytone is that for some reason, to me it feels "fast". Almost like the notes come out of the amp a nanosecond before I play it. I assume it's because I'm used to hearing a little sag from the tubes. But I don't really get that feeling from other solid state amps. *shrug*
-
I'm going to take a stab at this. If an amp has low, high, but no mids the lows and highs stand out. As you pointed out, the Fender chimes. With the lows, it also resonates like a baritone. These are much more attention getting sounds, especially if you are actively listening. What I mean is, if you are paying attention to the sound the amp is making, you are less receptive to the music. I'm not saying this to pick on you, it's just what I've noticed depending on whether I listen with great focus rather than letting the music come to me. So the Polytone could be doing an outstanding job fulfilling jazz fans' live performance and records, even if it falls short in A/B testing. And because it fulfills those expectations, people call it "jazz sound." Originally Posted by skiboyny
-
That is exactly what I think is happening also. Each amp when played just by itself sounds great. When you start comparing them side by side you notice the difference in tonality. And it's not a difference that is better or worse. It's just different. It's also interesting to note that the difference in tonality is more apparent when you first switch between amps. After a few minutes of playing just one amp that sound becomes "comfortable" in your head and it starts to sound real good. If you then switch to a different amp that amp sounds a bit strange and different at first but then again in a few minutes it becomes "comfortable" in your head once again. Amazing how the mind can adjust and create a balance that is pleasant within itself. Originally Posted by Andrew B.
-
I think the same often (not always) happens when you switch from one guitar to another. Originally Posted by jags
-
What is really annoying is that something might seem better with A/B testing, but over time the sound ends up being irritating. And the one that at first looked inferior is actually the good one.
-
I'm going to take up Andrew's ( and others') point here; I have used both the princeton and the polytone ( and recently mambo) for many years, both for home use and for gigging. Subjectively, the princeton has the more attractive sound with the scooped mids, and the poly sounds duller & flatter by comparison ( no exp of the roland..). But when I listen to recordings of those gigs with other instruments e.g. piano, tenor, bass, that scooped fender sound can very easily get lost in the mix, and the high notes don't have much weight to them and don't cut through, whereas the poly does push solo lines up in the mix. Originally Posted by Andrew B.
So, I think it's a bit more than the poly simply having become known by default as ''jazz sound''; the design "works", in the sense of giving the guitar a distinctive solo voice in a trad jazz combo setting, even if that voice is a slightly ''flat'' voice in isolation. A princeton can be modded to give an outstanding workable combo sound IMO, but it means altering the stock mid-scoop circuit.
Ideally of course, one should have one of each.. And in e.g. duo settings, a stock princeton can work very nicely indeed., esp for chord melody/ comping work.
-
Been playing the different amps with different guitars and found another interesting quirk about the Polytone. It seems to sound best with instruments that lean more acoustic than electric. I actually bought the Polytone for my upright bass player to use on gigs. All he has is a little Fender Rumble that sounds really bad. The Polytone sounds great with the upright acoustic bass. It also sounds great with my Godin 5th Avenue Kingpin. The Godin really has a great acoustic sound and is a lot more open and live sounding compared to any of my other archtops. The guitars that sound the worst through the Polytone are my Strat and other solid body electrics.
Something about the Polytone that makes it work really well with the more acoustic type instruments. This seems somewhat illogical because it's common practice that an acoustic amp is extremely clean and flat with an extended frequency range.
I think what is happening with the Polytone that makes it so unique is that it IS actually very clean and flat. But it is different compared to an acoustic amp in that it does NOT have an extended low or high end. This makes this amp seem midrangey when compared to other amps but in reality it IS flat but simply lacks top and bottom end. This characteristic would make it work well for a jazz tone. A lot of players like to use an acoustic amp for jazz because they are clean and flat. But they do often roll off the bass and treble. The Polytone has this built in! No wonder the Polytone seems to sound the worst when A/Bing against other amps but actual may work the best for a great jazz tone!Last edited by jags; 12-23-2013 at 06:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
'37 Gibson FB Radius
Today, 01:43 AM in The Builder's Bench