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God, those Gibson ES-345s and ES-355s are beautiful to my eyes. But what does that varitone circuit do to the tone of the guitar. From all that I have read, its effect is significant when you compare these guitars to their ES-335 brother.So can someone tell me if they:1) Suck tone?2) Suck volume?3) Kill sustain?4) Modify ES-335 toe such that it becomes unrecognizeable?5) Hurt the guitar's ability to play some of the old, dark Jazz tone?6) Affect tone in a way that is Inconclusive?Thanks.
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12-17-2013 05:47 PM
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You will not get an actual answer, based on facts, to your question. There are going to be 20 people saying that, in their experience, the varitones suck tone. Then 20 people with degrees in electrical engineering will tell you that the varitone CANNOT affect tone. This question has been a hot button in the 3x5 world for years.
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What Custom said. And also consider the playing style of each person that answers. One person's sucked tone is another person's perfectly articulated tone...
Bob
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I was afraid this would be the answer.
Oh well. It is what it is...
Thanks.
There sure are some nice ones for sale, and at cheaper prices on the "used" market than the ES-335s.
And did I mention that they looks so nice: Beautiful inlays, Gold Hardware,...
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A vari-tone is basically a notch filter, a circuit that drops out a frequency in an audio signal, leaving the audio below and above the notch circuit's frequency alone. (Similar to a simple tone control, but guitar tone controls drop out everything above the frequency they are set to.) The Gibson variety has six different capacitors as filter elements, each one dropping out a higher or lower frequency in the spectrum.
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I've had an ES 355 with intact Varitone for some years. The guitar is a 1962 model with PAF's and some decades ago, it was converted to mono operation but the Varitone circuit was left intact. Position #1, the knob turned to the left-most position, is the circuit bypass and the other five positions offer various capacitance-limited tones with the last position giving a very thin "chicken pick" tone usually associated with a Tele bridge pickup. I leave it in the bypass position when I play it most of the time but will switch it up when I get bored and want to play with the myriad of tones available on the neck only, bridge only, or both. I notice no tone sucking in the bypass position but of course I don't have a 335 of similar vintage to A/B it with. Although I probably wouldn't buy a newer guitar with a Varitone, there is no way that I'd ever consider doing the Varitone-dectomy that many have done with their old 345's and 355's. Now if you are looking for an old ES in the 335 family, one with a Varitone intact and still wired stereo will probably be a good bit cheaper than the more rare mono/no Varitone ones.
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I have a beautiful 345, vintage 2011. I also did a lot of research, and contacted Gibson about it. Position 1 is a hard-wired bypass, and doesn't affect tone.
My take? I love this guitar. I DO use the various positions, with position three my favorite after the position 1 bypass. I know a lot of people say it's a tone suck, but if it's truly bypassed, how could that be possible? Either Gibson is a big fat liar, or the extra wire length connecting everything up affects the tone somehow.
Anyway, it's a gorgeous guitar with a super-versatile sound. Plus, the double-parallelogram inlays and gold plating - she's just plain stunning!
Here's my email to Gibson, and their answer. I'm going to have to side with them, and consider the "tone-suck" rumor to be an old wive's tale:
Hi Bob,
Regarding your questions:
1- The center block is exactly the same on this model as it is for the ES-335. All the way through, with no cutout or portion removed for the varitone.
2- Position #1 is allows the signal to go straight to the volume pot from the pickup, so there are no additional resistors or caps in that position. We’re not certain about the rumors regarding current or prior tone problems with this, as it is as true bypass as possible.
Thank you for the inquiry.
Best regards,
Benton Cummings
Gibson Customer Service
From: Robert Cooper
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:58 PM
To: Benton Cummings
Subject: New ES-345 two questions
Just two questions about a new 2011 ES-345 I'm looking to buy from an authorized dealer:
1) does the center block extend all the way through? Or, does it stop around the stop-bar to make space for the Varitone?
2) varitone: is position #1 a true bypass? Or, is there still "stuff" in there like a resistor or something that would alter/mess with its tone even in bypass? I've been researching this for weeks, and many people/forums still say it's a "tone suck." I just gotta believe Gibson has addressed this problem, and it's not present in recent year models.
Sorry to bother you, but no one can give a definitive answer. So, I'm going to the guys/gals that build 'em!
Thanks,
Bob Cooper
Ft. Lauderdale, FL
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My Epiphone Lucille (2009 build in China) is what you'd call a ES355, with a Varitone (albeit Chinese).
When purchased I liked the tone - a lot, or I wouldn't have bought it - period. Didn't really need it.
It sounded great in the store, and when played side by side my buddy's '64 Gibson ES345 with original p/ups AND Varitone removed - they sounded exactly the same. We wanted to hear a difference (both guitars plugged into the same channel of an old Fender Super Reverb) but could not. And we DO know tone and the nuances.
So either, I got lucky, or he has a not so great old guitar??? No, his guitar sounds fine and so does mine, on bypass setting of the Varitone. The others are subject to taste, and I do use them occasionally. No sucking!
You just adjust your amp. No disappointments.
But, I did swap p/ups to get a better richer tone. Varitone still intact.
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Thanks for all the great responses folks.
Lots to think about, but I am not so hesitant to consider a Gibson ES-355 and ES-345 now.
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Once you switch a cap into the signal path it's gonna "suck tone" but isn't that the point of those things? Kinda like preset tone knobs.
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BB King uses one, I like his tones!
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Could the difference in price/tone be down to the fact that a guitar with a varitone has a plastic control cover on the back. Well, that's the case with the Epi Lucille.
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I didn't know the Epi's had a plastic cover on the back.
But the Gibby's don't, and still there's a tone dispute.
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I have three (137 custom, 345, and Blueshawk) guitars with Varitone. The filters DEFINITELY drop your volume as you move the selector away from bypass but it does nothing in the bypass setting. This is easily fixed with a volume pedal or adjusting the volume on the amp.
IMO it's a great invention. Peavey did something like this on their 12ax7 preamps and it worked like a dream, except the slide switches broke and were hard to change position live without a pointed stylus or screwdriver.
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UH...what's a plastic cover got to do with tone? Yes, makes assembly easier/smarter, but tone?
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In the wide world of tone lore, all variables are open for causal assignment.
That is my best guess.
I suppose it is clear that the Varitone is not a low pass filter like a normal passive "tone" control. Rather, as already mentioned, it is a notch filter. It "scoops" the tone, reducing the midrange.
The upper end of the scoop is fixed by the 1.5 H coil. The lower end is variable based on the cap selected by the switch.
It is almost reasonable for players to have differing experiences with the Varitone. Our high impedance (i.e. pathetically low current) passive guitar signals are subject to significant interaction between the various R, L, and C components through to the first amp gain stage.
Or maybe it is the type of cap (mylar, oil/paper, etc.) and size of the plastic covert,...
Zoeker, B.
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What the hell have you been reading? Have you ever played with a Varitone equipped guitar? It does not just "scoop" midrange. And the type of cap has little significance - it would be the value. And the plastic cover just oozes tone.
Oh, I get it now.
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Jimmy,
My general thrust was one of attempted humor.
But to stay dry and to the points:
>>> What the hell have you been reading?
A thread of mixed pedigree. Some sense, some drivel (like the link to the bdguitars site), some opinion, some experience.
>>> Have you ever played with a Varitone equipped guitar?
Played many. Made many variations on the varitone using a 1.5H choke and various caps, both on switches and with a pot in there as well.
EDIT: I even have a little passive box that goes on the output jack that is based on the 1.5H choke and a cap. It is just the ticket for plugging directly into a PA where the sound man insists on treating your archtop like a piezo-equipped flat top.
>>> It does not just "scoop" midrange.
Actually, this is what it does. It is a passive filter that allows a selected midrange to be shunted to ground. The high end of the range is controlled by the 1.5H choke, and the low end is controlled by the cap.
>>> And the type of cap has little significance - it would be the value.
I am one of those weirdos who find the type of cap to have absolutely no significance whatsoever unless one is given to paranormal experiences.
If you read the tolerance codes on caps, then it seems clear that many of the comparisons made between cap types are poorly controlled for remarkable value variation vs. the marked nominal values.
>>> And the plastic cover just oozes tone.
Nothing beats ABS covers for mojo and tone. I hear that the camphor in the pre-ABS celluloid covers can gradually evaporate and give the equivalent of an old Alnico II magnet tone. But I am still an ABS man myself.
>>> Oh, I get it now.
Yeah, sorry for the facetious tone so closed to the holidays.
BZLast edited by Bezoeker; 12-20-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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I like it I like it. Humor at the holiday! And I learned something.
It's just hard to understand the "scooped" in this context, as it is usually used in explaining Fender Blackface tone. My Varitone brings the midrange to the foreground, as well as the bass, sometimes.
But, let's expand our view and our vocab.
Happy Holidays
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My use of "scooped" is nearly as dopey as the bigdguitars site use of "color".
An earlier post noted that it is a "notch filter", which is a far better description.
>>> My Varitone brings the midrange to the foreground, as well as the bass, sometimes.
The Varitone when switched to use one of the smaller caps, can indeed end up only reducing a narrow band of upper mids. To many this can sound like a bass and midrange emphasis (even though some of the highest of the mids are being cut.
>>> But, let's expand our view and our vocab.
OK. I will go look out an upstairs window and say "adumbrate".
Zoeker, B.
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I've done many experiments by using different Capacitor values in a guitar's circuit over the last 35 years. Sending the guitar's "Hot" signal through a Capacitor sends frequencies to ground, the actual frequencies depend upon the Capacitor's value. The Varitone switch changes between various Capacitor values, so different frequencies that are sent to ground. Guitar circuits are very simple circuits, so experiment and listen to the results.
Guy
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Mack
Well, a bit like the effect of dropping a routed humbucker into a carved top as opposed to a floating pickup which preserves the integrity of the wood as many expert players and luthiers all seem to agree.
But clearly you know better. "UH" is a noise normally associated with stroppy teenagers or an indication you think the other person is stupid.
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you mean, like that horrible L5CES tone…..? Originally Posted by Chimera1to1
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Both Epiphone and Gibson "Lucille" models have no f-holes, so they need an access in the back of the guitar that has a plastic cover to install wiring harness, jack, pots, etc. It has nothing to do exclusively with varitone circuit. Somewhat of a moot issue relative to the point of the thread.
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I can't say that I agree with you Chimera 1to1. I've been around, and i do know a thing or two. And I know that I can always learn more.
My opinion is : The plastic cover on the back of a semi - hollow laminated maple body thinline guitar has very little to do with the tone. If it were ebony or spruce, I'll bet that wouldn't change a thing.... but the rear cover is miles away from affecting the tone in the way that p/ups mounted on the surface would.
Some people don't like floaters, some do, and for very good reasons. My Johnny Smith always sounded brittle when amped, and I could not EQ that away. I prefer mounted routed p/ups for a woody jazz tone. Different strokes.
I never ever meant to indicate that I thought you were stupid. Sorry for that exclamation.
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