16" acoustic archtop? Is there such a thing?

[rpguitar]

http://stevegreene.com

Well, that was a treat. Thanks for the link. Can I assume that the guitars on "Acoustic Living" are depicted accurately on the CD cover? I could identify a 17" L-5 non-cut (likely 40s) on the left channel straight away! It's always fun and somewhat rare to hear acoustic archtops played unplugged on record, as they were initially intended to be.

[Klatu]

Jim, this isn't about a guitar as much as about a player who can coax an amazing sound out of an Archtop. He's a good friend. I have produced his trio records as well as a duo record with Gene Bertoncini. His name is Steve Greene and he's worth getting to know for his deep knowledge of the tone a player can find in an acoustic instrument.

http://stevegreene.com

bob

Impressive. How do you know Steve Greene and how did you get into jazz record production?

[uburoibob]

Well, that was a treat. Thanks for the link. Can I assume that the guitars on "Acoustic Living" are depicted accurately on the CD cover? I could identify a 17" L-5 non-cut (likely 40s) on the left channel straight away! It's always fun and somewhat rare to hear acoustic archtops played unplugged on record, as they were initially intended to be.

Hi Roger,

When I put the cover together, I didn't set out to deceive. I owned the 1939 blonde Super 400 (now owned by David Grisman). A friend had the 1940 L-5. And I thought those guitars worked better for the cover shot. We did shoot a bunch with all sorts of instruments, but that shot, with those guitars, worked out to be the best photo.

The recording is actually a 1947 non-cut L-7, in the left channel and an early 1950s Epi Triumph, non cut, in the right channel - so, yes, you have great ears.

For the L-7, it was recorded with a Neumann U-87 hanging over the neck/body joint and a KM-184 aimed at the treble side of the bridge. For the Triumph, it was a Neumann TLM-170 over the neck/body joint and a KM-184 aimed at the treble side of the bridge. There was also a pair of AKG C-1000's placed about 3 feet out from each guitar. We moved the band around the basement studio for a week until we got just the right combination of recorded sound and the band energy that comes from playing in the right environment. Then we took all the songs live - no punching or overdubbing. I mixed it at Steve's studio - it was recorded to an Alesis ADAT through an Alesis rack mixer. Processing was minimal.

The same basic recording techniques were used for Live In Your Living Room (except Roy was playing a Taylor Flat Top for some of the cuts), a Steve Anderson 17" Oval Hole and a Steve Anderson Metro Special (also 17"). For Gene and Greene, Gene Bertoncini played his Takamine nylon string cutaway.

Probably more than you wanted to know...

Bob

[uburoibob]

Impressive. How do you know Steve Greene and how did you get into jazz record production?

Hi,

I've known Steve since the 1970s. We both are in Rochester, NY. We got to know each other at a store I ran called T. Rizzo Music (now Northfield Music) in the late 70s. He was teaching there - a lot of great jazz guitarists taught there. It was owned by Tom Rizzo, himself a great jazz guitarist. An incredible environment!

I had always been into recording myself and others - from my first Lafayette Sound-On-Sound/Sound-With-Sound reel-to-reel recorder in the late 1960s.

In the early 1990s, I found that Super 400 in an attic. The sides were separated from the top, they were splintered out, there were cracks everywhere. It was held together with duct and electrical tape. The neck had been horribly shaved. But it was one of the seven pre-war blonde, non-cutaway Super 400s. I bought it for $600 in that condition. Wrote to Tom Van Hoose and Stan Jay, asking about who was best to restore it. I settled on Mike Lennon, who was running a place called The Apprentice Shop in Nashville, TN. It took him two years to put it back together and cost me $2000. So, I ended up with a very rare Super 400 with $2600 dollars into it, figuring if I didn't like it, I could always sell it for that. I loved it. He did an incredible job and that guitar has a great voice. I kept it until 2008 when my body just couldn't deal with playing a guitar that big anymore, and sold it through Bernunzio to David Grisman. It's the spitting image of Jerry Garcia's. Here is a link to the web site I built when I put it up for sale. It shows before and after images: 1939Super400

ANYWAY, long story short, while the guitar was being restored, I decided I'd like to be able to play jazz on it when it returned. So I started studying with Steve. It was during this time that we talked about getting a good recording of him out there. In 1995, we did it. Then we did the Bertoncini record and another trio record. I also recorded his other band, The White Hots at the Little Theater in the early 2000s'.

So, that was my illustrious career as a record producer/recording engineer. In the day time, I have an advertising agency that handled Sennheiser from 1991 to 2008 or so along with other music, pro-sound, recording and broadcast clients. Now, I've scaled back to being solo and my primary client is Wheatstone who makes consoles, processing and networked audio gear for the broadcast industry. I created and maintain Ken Parker's site ( Ken Parker Archtops - Finest Archtop Guitars ).


I guess I was in a chatty mood this morning! Anyway, thanks for asking!

SORRY, Jim. I didn't mean to hijack your thread. I turn control back over to you...

Bob

[rpguitar]

Probably more than you wanted to know...

Hardly! I love it. Thanks for the info.

Actually it's extremely interesting to me, because my immediate reaction to the left channel instrument was "Hey, that sounds just like my L-5N," which is also a '47. I'll bet the same Gibson craftsman carved the tops. It's really uncanny.

I record my acoustic archtops with similar, albeit lower cost, mics. But I've always reversed them relative to what you describe: I have a small diaphragm (Beyerdynamic MC930) pointed at the neck/body join, and a large one (Shure KSM32) pointed at the treble side of the bridge. I'll have to switch and see what that does to the sound.

I'll admit that I have particular difficulty recording larger archtops like my '47 Super 400. I can never quite get it to sound as nice as it does to my ears while I'm playing it. There's always too much strident, direct sound and not as much of the smoother ambience that is there when I play.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and sorry to divert Jim's thread.

[Jim Soloway]

Everyone can quit apologizing about the diversion. That's what conversation does and it was all much more interesting than a question of mine that really got adequately answered in the first response.

Besides, I'm not in a rush. For now, I'm going to continue focus on getting my electric arch top needs fully in order (almost done other than paying all the bills) and in the mean time I'll explore some acoustic alternatives and consider where that ought to go over time.

[uburoibob]

Hardly! I love it. Thanks for the info.

Actually it's extremely interesting to me, because my immediate reaction to the left channel instrument was "Hey, that sounds just like my L-5N," which is also a '47. I'll bet the same Gibson craftsman carved the tops. It's really uncanny.

That's pretty cool! I'll bet it WAS the same person.

I record my acoustic archtops with similar, albeit lower cost, mics. But I've always reversed them relative to what you describe: I have a small diaphragm (Beyerdynamic MC930) pointed at the neck/body join, and a large one (Shure KSM32) pointed at the treble side of the bridge. I'll have to switch and see what that does to the sound.

I've found the larger diaphragm is better for the transients coming off the neck where the smaller diaphragm is better for grabbing a nice tight bottom end. There's a LOT of harmonics floating around. I've found, with these guitars, the best bass is found where I place the KM-184 - but you have to listen while doing it to find the right spot.

I'll admit that I have particular difficulty recording larger archtops like my '47 Super 400. I can never quite get it to sound as nice as it does to my ears while I'm playing it. There's always too much strident, direct sound and not as much of the smoother ambience that is there when I play.

Try reversing the mics and pulling the the neck/joint one away from the guitar a little further. Not saying it'll work, but that's what I had to do to get mine recorded.

Anyway, thanks for sharing and sorry to divert Jim's thread.

Thanks for the discussion!

Bob

[Chazmo]

You either love Godin 5th Avenues or you hate 'em. I happen to love my base model acoustic. It was really inexpensive and it may be the most comfortable guitar I have ever played because it has a great action, with a short-scale neck, and the body is 16" and thinner than most archtops. It sounds pretty good as an acoustic, but with a different voice than the Gibsons or Epis. It has an aftermarket floater attached to the neck, but is basically still an acoustic guitar. I travel with this one, because it fits in the overhead bin and if something happened to it, it is easily replaceable.

For an out-of-the-archtop box idea, try a Martin 00-15M. I love mine. It's the only flattop I currently own. This little mahogany jewel has a warm sound when played lightly, but it barks when you really hit it. I installed a K&K pickup so I can plug it in when I want.

I play standards and Gypsy jazz on either of these.

[spiral]

For an out-of-the-archtop box idea, try a Martin 00-15M. I love mine. It's the only flattop I currently own.

I didn't want to muddy the waters but you opened the locks / damn / gates (?).

Along those lines, I own a Loar LO-216 parlor and bought it as a travel guitar for the very reason that it had a sort of archtop sound as I'm not a flattop fan. 25.4" scale. Solid top. It is so easy to play and really projects. Got it for $230. The tuners were awful so I replaced them with Grover 18:1 Sta-tites.

[DRS]

I would get a used Loar LH600 or 650. They usually sell for around $800-900 used. The LH350s have solid tops and lam back/sides and are $800 new so probably $4-500 used.

[Hammertone]

Another option within your budget is a higher end '50s Hofner archtop like a President (relatively easy to find, always with a cutaway), Model 457 (available with or without a cutaway), or one of the more obscure Models 458/459/462/463/464/465. Early to late-'50s versions of these guitars often came with carved solid spruce tops.

Sometimes they sound like ass acoustically, but sometimes they sound great.
Sometimes they have narrow/deep necks, but sometimes they have wide necks.
They all have @25 1/2" scale lengths.
Rims vary from @3" to 3 5/8" depending on the model.
Trussrods were introduced in 1960 - earlier versions have non-adjustable metal bars under their fingerboards.
Because of significant tariffs on American built instrument into Canada throughout the '50s and '60s, they are lots of these guitars in Canada, at least in Eastern Canada. No one really knows what they are, so they are priced all over the map.

Here's a nice mid-'50s 457/S acoustic carved-top with a cutaway. Hard to get lost on that fretboard!

[DC Ron]

My recommendations for 16" acoustics are

Gibson L-4C
Heritage Sweet 16
Eastman

I've owned a bunch of archtops and the 16" acoustic (ie solid top) archtop offers the best combination of comfort, tone and balance. Other archtops offer unique advantages, but the 16" acoustic is (overall) just perfect to me. Good luck!

[NSJ]

Here's an issue with playing a really nicely voiced acoustic arch top.

I usually play finger style. But I have found that the tonal clarity, the expressiveness of the notes, the overall richness of the sound, really come alive with a plectrum. Singe notes and especially strummed chords.

On an electric guitar, the difference doesn't seem as pronounced to me.

[Patrick2]

Here's an issue with playing a really nicely voiced acoustic arch top.

I usually play finger style. But I have found that the tonal clarity, the expressiveness of the notes, the overall richness of the sound, really come alive with a plectrum. Singe notes and especially strummed chords.

On an electric guitar, the difference doesn't seem as pronounced to me.

I totally agree. I also think you have greated control over the dynamics by using a pick . . (I just can't bring myself to say . . plectrum). I play my arch tops unplugged 95% of the time. I just love varying my dynamics by changing the orientation of the pick angle . . or the pick attack. I love the way classical players do this by using a combination of finger nail and finger pad/tip, or all nail, or all pad/tip. That does get lost with finger style playing through an amp. Everyone seemed to love Wes' tone. But, all he ever had was one tone. . "the thumb" . . with no variation.

[bananafist]

Maybe a bit too expensive, but nobody's mentioned the Peerless MS Maestro. I've been considering this as a small body acoustic archtop, all solid wood, wider neck, ebony fingerboard with admittedly short scale. I'm still trying to find one to try, but anybody tried one since the review a while back?

[DRS]

Maybe a bit too expensive, but nobody's mentioned the Peerless MS Maestro. I've been considering this as a small body acoustic archtop, all solid wood, wider neck, ebony fingerboard with admittedly short scale. I'm still trying to find one to try, but anybody tried one since the review a while back?

Good call.
I'd love to have a Maestro. And expensive? They're around $2500-3000 which isn't bad considering how many teenagers go scurrying out of GC with $2500 Les Pauls in their clammy grips.

[Jim Soloway]

Good call.
I'd love to have a Maestro. And expensive? They're around $2500-3000 which isn't bad considering how many teenagers go scurrying out of GC with $2500 Les Pauls in their clammy grips.

I think he means expensive only in the context of the budget and needs of the OP (yours truly) especially after ordering a custom Heritage yesterday.

[Klatu]

I think he means expensive only in the context of the budget and needs of the OP (yours truly) especially after ordering a custom Heritage yesterday.

What did you order and who did you order it through?

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=Klatu;381716]What did you order and

who did you order it through?

"That's classified information. If he told you . . he'd have to kill you! (Maverick, "Top Gun")

[JSanta]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;381743]

What did you order and



"That's classified information. If he told you . . he'd have to kill you! (Maverick, "Top Gun")

Well that's just fine, because, well, um... I didn't want to know anyway!

[mitch_33]

Wow! Thats beautiful! I am in Ontario, I'm going to have to keep an eye out for these, i just missed a Rogers acoustic archtop for 400. I never got the chance to play it though.

[Jim Soloway]

What did you order and who did you order it through?

Something with a 25.5" scale length that I can tune to C#. Speaking of which, the name of the next album s going to be "Low Key Guitar"