Gibson L-5 Scale Length

[Tonear]

I made a remark that L-5s were long-scale like Fender guitars at 25 1/2". My friend said, "Not all of them." Is that true?

I've got two L-5 CES here at the house, a 1976 and a custom shop 1989. Last night I got out the tape and measured.

The 1976 is pretty close to 25 1/2". The low string a tiny bit over, the high strings a bit under.
The 1989 is substantially less. At its longest 25 1/4".

Interesting. I wonder if they meant to do that, or the bridge got moved.

There is some questionable execution on that 1989 guitar. The strings are not lined up with the pickup screws and the spacing is uneven at the saddle.

Anyone have info about the scale length on L-5s?

[wintermoon]

1922-1934 = 24 3/4"
1935- present = 25 1/2"

[Tonear]

Was there variation on the bridge placement after 1934?
Or is the bridge misplaced on the 1989? Should one move it to 25 1/2" if it was built a bit shorter?
T

[monk]

I made a remark that L5s were long scale like Fender guitars at 25 1/2". My friend said, "Not all of them." Is that true?
I've got two L5 CES here at the house, a 1976 and a custom shop 1989. Last night I got out the tape and measured.
The 1976 is pretty close to 25 1/2". The low string a tiny bit over, the high strings a bit under.
The 1989 is substantially less. At its longest 25 1/4".
Interesting. I wonder if they meant to do that, or the bridge got moved. There is some questionable execution on that 1989 guitar. The strings not lined up with the pickup screws, the spacing uneven at the saddle.
Anyone have info about the scale length on L5s?
Tonear

1. If you measured from nut to bridge, I would suggest that you measure from the nut to the 12th fret and multiply your measurement by 2 for a more accurate measurement of scale.

2. On traditional archtop guitars, the points on the side of the "F holes" are your baseline markers for the bridge placement. Start with the bridge centered between the points and adjust from there.

[fumblefingers]

right.

nut to 12th fret x 2 gives one the scale length.

[Tonear]

I just measured that distance from the takeoff point of the nut to the center of the 12th fret. Both guitars are 12 5/8".
Interesting, that doubled is 25 1/4". (not 25 1/2")
The 1976 from nut to bridge is 25 1/2. That means there is more distance between the 12th and bridge than there is between nut and 12th.
The 1989 is equal on both sides of the 12th fret, but overall 25 1/4".
Both guitars have been setup by the best of repairmen, and appear to play in tune very well.
Lining up the bridge with the point in the F hole is an interesting historical fact. However, a guitar could have issues in manufacture that override that as an accurate placement.
Is it possible that 25 1/4" was the intended scale for the frets and fingerboard of the L5?
T

[oldane]

Was there variation on the bridge placement after 1934?
Or is the bridge misplaced on the 1989? Should one move it to 25 1/2" if it was built a bit shorter?
T

The archtop bridge is floating - i.e. not fixed to the top. It should be placed where the guitar intonates correctly - and it's easy to move it around to get there. I have never relied on ruler measurements for bridge placement, only my ears - where does the guitar intone correctly. The correct position will be at twice the distance from the nut to the 12th fret + a bit more to allow for the stretching of the strings due to the action. With a high action, the bridge must be placed a bit farther from the neck than with a low action.

That's the beauty of the archtop floating bridge (as opposed to a flattop bridge) - it accomodates a wide setup variety. Freddie Green was able to setup his guitar with an action close to ½" at the 12th fret and still intonate OK. That wouldn't have been possible with a flattop.

The F-holes can't be used as a reliable reference. Often the bridge is placed at the center of the F-holes - mostly for cosmetic reasons - but not always. I have a Painter P-350 guitar. On that the bridge has to be placed a bit south of the center of the F-holes. That's because Tom Painter normally made guitars with a 25" scale, but I requested a 25½" scale. The F-hole placement on the top is for the 25" scale, but with the 25½" scale the bridge had to be moved a bit towards the tailpiece.

I suggest you stop worrying about the "correct" bridge placement - as measured by a ruler - and just place it where it intones properly - wherever that may be.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

1922-1934 = 24 3/4"
1935- present = 25 1/2"

Apart from what's being discussed here, this is what I thought. Is 1935 when the body went from 16" to 17"?

[wintermoon]

yes, but there were a few 16" L-5's still being made into the mid to late 30's after the 17" advanced models were introduced

[SamBooka]

ya really want to know? measure from the 12th fret to the nut and multiply by 2

[Kojo27]

Apart from what's being discussed here, this is what I thought. Is 1935 when the body went from 16" to 17"?

So, did the shift from shorter to longer scale length have something (?) to do with the bump to 17" box? I'm guessing the longer scale gives more of a jangly sound (which is what I love) - or not? Longer scale (all else equal) would be a mite louder, maybe?

What's the difference, in other words?

Loren

[rpguitar]

What's the difference, in other words?

If we're talking just about scale length, then generally, YES - longer scale produces a sound with a higher toned character to it. Obviously the notes are the same, but the overall sonority of the instrument, perhaps its peak resonance if you will, shifts to a higher frequency. Think Strat vs. Les Paul.

I hesitate to talk about the differences in the L-5 along the path of its development, as that's a longer discussion with much more opinion and anecdotal evidence involved. The tonal changes are far more interesting than just a scale length discussion. However:

L-5 Early Milestone Years
1923 - L-5 introduced with carved parallel braces and 24.75" scale
1929 - kerfed parallel braces used to save labor
1934 - "Advanced" 17" L-5 along with X braces and 25.5" scale
1939 - return to parallel braces; L-5P Premier (i.e. cutaway, later called L-5C)
1951 - L-5CES; dual P90 electric (later Alnico, then PAF, etc.)

In the transition years, you'll find examples with both old and new specs.

[SamBooka]

2. On traditional archtop guitars, the points on the side of the "F holes" are your baseline markers for the bridge placement. Start with the bridge centered between the points and adjust from there.

Works for violins too IIRC

[Patrick2]

I just measured that distance from the takeoff point of the nut to the center of the 12th fret. Both guitars are 12 5/8".
Interesting, that doubled is 25 1/4". (not 25 1/2")

That's very unusual. You should probably re check you measurements.

[fumblefingers]

shouldn't it be the center of nut to the center of 12th fret? what is the "take off" point of the nut? the edge? thats not where the string stops.

[fritz jones]

There was some thread discussing this, how there was a lot of variation over the years.
sometimes the listed 24.75 scale length was more like 24.5 and 25.5 was actually 25.3 or some such thing.
from stew mac:

Gibson
The Gibson 24-3/4" scale is also very common, but it is also the most confusing of all scale lengths—this is because it rarely ever measures out to be 24-3/4 inches! This scale has gradually changed over the past fifty or so years due to changes in production equipment.



Being shorter than the Fender 25-1/2" scale, the Gibson 24-3/4" scale has a lower tension/easier to play feel, and a warmer tone.

[Kojo27]

shouldn't it be the center of nut to the center of 12th fret? what is the "take off" point of the nut? the edge? thats not where the string stops.

I looked to be sure, FF, and my strings stop at the very edge... unless I'm hallucinating, and I don't rule that out. I mean, the length of string ceases when it enters the nut slot, because the string makes such strong contact with the nut that it can't possibly vibrate beyond the nut's edge. Seems to me.


loren

[monk]

shouldn't it be the center of nut to the center of 12th fret? what is the "take off" point of the nut? the edge? thats not where the string stops.

Scale length is measured from where the string leaves the nut to the point where it touches the bridge. The distance between the nut and the bridge. The length of the string that vibrates when plucked.

[DRS]

Remember, the scale length is a nominal description, not an exact length. Theoretically, if you take a vibrating string length 25.5" long and place a fret at exactly 12.75", it should be precisely 1 octave above the open pitch when fretted. But as you have to stretch the string down to the fret, the pitch will be off. And different width strings are off by different percentages. That is why we have compensated saddles and adjustable bridges. Also, old strings will intonate differently (or not at all) from new strings. Intonation will vary with string brands, types, and gauges. A pack of new strings can have a dud that won't intonate. A poorly cut nut can give you a guitar that is difficult to intonate. And just to make things more complicated, doesn't Gibson use a different formula for fret spacing than other makers? This means you can get intonation bang on at fret 12 but an open E chord can sound off.

Start out by using the scale length to position the bridge. Then move the bridge around until the guitar is intonated as closely as possible in all playing positions.Assuming you have a solid wood bridge.

[fumblefingers]

OK.

Ouch, you are saying that Gibson uses a different fret spacing from say, Benedetto?

[Jimmy Mack]

What DRS said. And guitars coming from factories aren't ALWAYS spot on to some exact specification!!! F-holes as placement ???? Really ? I've seen all kinds of mis-alignments.

Intonate properly, and enjoy.

[DRS]

OK.

Ouch, you are saying that Gibson uses a different fret spacing from say, Benedetto?

Apparently, yes. There are several ways to calculate the fret spacing: rule of 18, rule of 17.817, 12th root of 2. Don't ask me the difference because I just know of their existence, not the math.

[fritz jones]

Benedetto used 25" a lot which is actually 25.1". You can see that he marked this on a fretboard in his book.

I kind of like 24.9" which is one of the Martin scale length templates from LMI.

[Patrick2]

What DRS said. And guitars coming from factories aren't ALWAYS spot on to some exact specification!!! F-holes as placement ???? Really ? I've seen all kinds of mis-alignments.

Intonate properly, and enjoy.

While there is some slight variation as it relates to positioning of floating bridge bases . . . the fret board slots will never vary. Fret board slots are cut in with an automatic *jig* slot cutter. Therefore, they are pretty much always consistent in their spacing. The F holes are also cut into an L5 top with a template. So, while certainly not CNC accurate to that degree of perfection, they are definitely accurate enough to use as a starting point if one should totally remove a floating bridge assy for repairs or for cleaning/polishing. But, to your point, placement of the base being guided by the F holes should not be assumed as properly intonated. I agree with your comment of . . "Intonate properly, and enjoy"

Now, this is all pertinent to factory built arch tops. A one person shop type of a boutique builder my decide he/she wants to vary the location, shape or size of the F holes. They may also hand cut the fret slots without a jig or guiding template. That would make all of the above moot. But, factories like Gibson or Heritage are pretty much going to be spot on consistent with the L5 or Golden Eagle arch top type guitars they are currently building in the Custom Shops at Nashville and Kalamazoo.

[rpguitar]

There always seems to be so much consternation about intonation...

While the measurement guideline is factual and useful for getting started, intonation is ultimately adjusted by tuning. The goal is to position the bridge such that the fretted notes at the 12th are in tune (to the cent) with the natural harmonics at the same position. You move the bridge toward the nut when the fretted note is flat in relation to the harmonic, and you move it toward the tailpiece when the fretted note is sharp in relation to the harmonic.