Any Gibson Tal Farlow Players Here?

[fws6]

Thats a hard choice. Tal is might nice. But Id have troubles letting an all purpose quintessential jazzer like the ES175 go

[Greentone]

Damn! Can you imagine the huevos it would take to touch Chuck Berry's amp? The guy is a flippin' icon. If he set his amp at volume 10, bass 1, treble 10, reverb 9, speed 10, intensity 10--makes no sense to me--I'd back the bleep up...it's Chuck Berry. You better be at least Jerry Wexler--heck, that's not enough A&R juice--before you start telling Chuck Berry what to do. Damn!

[2bornot2bop]

There's nothing more "all purposeful" than a Tal' either. I'd make that plunge in a heartbeat!

[Archtop Guy]

Stick with your "perfect" guitar. If you want a Tal wait till you can have both. You don't get better than perfect.

[WilliamScott]

I'd only do the trade if I was less than happy with the 175. Otherwise I would wait until I could have both. On the other hand, I now have a 175 and I used to have a Tal which I liked a lot, but the Tal went and the 175 didn't, FWIW.

[Bluedawg]

A Tal is on my list .... I loved the one I played recently

but my list is longer than my bank account is large .... and there is at least one other guitar ahead of a Tal

[jads57]

The Tal Farlow is definetly a bigger instrument 17" and 25&1/2" scale length albeit a bit thinner than the ES-175. Tal was a big guy w/ large hands. Make sure to try one first or at least something close to it like a Heritage H-550 before you commit!

[rpguitar]

A guitar that sounds perfect and is set up great should not normally be squandered on a whim. If you were moving from a cheap brand to a name like Gibson, then sure, I could see the gamble. Or from a low end Gibson like as ES-125 to a high end L-5, then sure. But this is a nearly even exchange in my book - 175 for TF - with unproven geometry differences that you will have to evaluate and work through. So it's not a slam dunk for a player, no matter what the market watchers say.

At least go play the TF extensively and make an informed choice based on experience. Don't just gamble on it.

[Herbie]

Tough one.

The difference of the scales seem quite small in inches or in cm's. But when I learned that my Epi Emperor is 25,5" and my other guitars were 24,75" I realised that those hundred times in concerts that I had missed a note or a line were not because my badness but because I had used to my shorter scale Les Pauls.

Changed it to ES-165 (and after that to ES-175) and even I still miss notes playing live I am now hundreds of percents better guitarist than with the longer scale gtr. I like playing more.

For some folks those mm's aren't hard. But at the moment I have no time in my life to play so much that I could get used to longer scale.

Luckily I saw a document about a luthier who made high end cellos. Once he copied an ancient and expensive cello for a top cellist. This master played the copy first time and said: "it is exciting to adjust to a different scale of this new instrument".

Luthier was shocked, the scales should have been identical! After he got home he measured the cellos once again. And there it was: the new one had 4mm longer scale. And this cellist notised it.

So good luck for making the decision!

[vinlander]

I would also advice against an impulse swap.
If you got a good sounding and setup 175 you got a proven archetypical jazz work horse.
On the other hand, a Tal is a fabulous instrument I won't lie about it.
My 1996 has a great comfortable neck; having been a 24.75 Les Paul player for 25 years, I don't have any problem playing the 25.5 scale; my hands are average size I would say.
I would suggest to try it first for a test ride to see if it is for you; only then can you decide if it would really be a step up or not.

[GNAPPI]

There's REAL good advice up above, The old saying "a bird in the hand" definitely applies here :-) Even though I love my Tal Farlow, I also "feel" the 175 I own.

I'd say that if I knew where a Tal was in a local shop and I owned a 175 I would take the 175 in, play them side by side. You will note differences immediately even if the Tal Farlow isn't setup the way you want. Then you can make a decision.

If you were to trade, if possible ask for a 7 day in home trial so you can bring it back if it didn't move you in your house/studio and gear.

PS. I haven't met a TF that was setup poorly
PS1... Never have I played one I did not like
PS2... A 175 that connects with you is rarer than finding a good TF
PS3... If the price difference on the trade is a good one for you, consider it more seriously
PS4... Ultimately if I had to choose between my Tal Farlow and my 175, the TF would stay, not even a shred of doubt in my mind.


Many if not most players who owned a 175 and Tal I think feel the way I do. The TF is a very special git.

Good luck, and keep us posted!!!

PS5... Send pics either way!
PS6... Waiting for Dutchbopper to weigh in here :-)

[marceff]

THANKS! is the simplest but also the most heartfelt way to show my appreciation for all your answers, each of which, although different, it gives me the opportunity to make the right decision.


If I were Chuck Barry then the adjective "perfect" would have its own meaning. But being myself a passionate musician, still in the learning phase, the meaning of "perfect" is definitely related to my experience. I'm experiencing techniques, phrasing, harmony and... guitars maybe.

I was able to setup my 175 just because I tried for the first time the truss rod adjustment, then strings, bridges, etc. I think for someone like me, who does not have enough experience, it could be useful to try different solutions.


I also agree that a real guitarist plays well with any instrument, but before becoming it, if ever possible, it should work hard and experience as much as possible.


I can not afford both guitars, otherwise there would be no question, however, the TF will only cost me a difference of a few hundred dollars (€ in my case). I bought my 175 at a very low price and the store assess it more than double what I paid!
I will have however the possibility to be able to test it for at least a couple of hours, although the store is about 200 miles away.

Marcello


PS @Vinny: yours is gorgeous! The one I pointed is sunburst.
PS @ Gnappi: I sure will, as I close the dial.

[GNAPPI]

Herbie,

It must be a rare thing to see a Tal Farlow in Finland? That's the color I have but mine is a 1996.

You are right they are not common even here in the States, maybe it's their cost, or kitchy appearance that holds the sales down, whatever the reason is, owners don't care :-)

Anyway, I spent a lot of time in Finland, loved it there.

[Encinitastubes]

my wife banned me from trading. She was sick about hearing about the regret. Even though I might not currently play a particular guitar, I tend to go in phases and it is good to have the option. I say save up for the Tal; they are not rare and will be available when you have the funds,

[marceff]

Yes, I quote both Gary and Encinistabus. All Gibson are factory made, we're not dealing with Stradivari or Guarneri del Gesù.
In my case, it is just an opportunity in which I can exchange my 175 with a TF, having to pay 200/300 Euro for difference, would it worth while?
My doubt concerns whether this could be an improvement, thinking that my 175 now is fully set up, no buzz, good action, good bass/treble balance. On the other end, my 175 is equipped with 2 P94 and maybe humbuckers would match my taste better.
I think I'll go to the store and play it anyway, then (hopeful) I'll decide.

[rpguitar]

It's not an objective improvement. It's just a matter of taste. All I was saying earlier is don't underestimate the power of a really well set-up guitar, particularly one of unquestioned iconic status like the Gibson ES-175. "A bird in the hand" as they say.

Now if you simply LIKE the Tal better for various reasons and can get it set up just as nicely, then by all means, have at it. Glad you'll get the chance to play both guitars in A-B fashion. That should seal the deal.

[GNAPPI]

On the other end, my 175 is equipped with 2 P94 and maybe humbuckers would match my taste better.
I think I'll go to the store and play it anyway, then (hopeful) I'll decide.

Whoa... You have a very different animal with your 175 having P94's. I like P94's but if you were to take the 175 in for a side by side comparison with a TF you will hear a world of difference. Side by side P94's "should" appear to be brighter than a TF with all controls fully up with either either pup selected.

If you REALLY liked like the P94's I don't think you would like the TF nearly as much! Then again if you bought the TF you could always install (shudder) P94's in it :-)

PS. My hands are on the smaller side of average and the TF scale doesn't bother me.

[Dutchbopper]

I have played both a Tal and a 175 for years and they are both great guitars. The 175 is probably a bit more comfortable due to its smaller scale but I seem to switch between the two easily and I am not a big guy.

I would not trade in a 175 on a Tal though. It's such an archetypal jazz guitar. I do not know about the 175 with P94 pups though.

Does the Tal sound better than my 175? Mmmm ... not sure "better" is the word. The Tal sounds different, probably a bit "bigger." Like a 175 on steroids. But it has that Tal thing going on and that is quite unique and very cool. Like my 175 has that "Joe" thing going on. I would not want to choose. There are days I need my 175 and days I want my Tal.

DB

[Groyniad]

so these guitars are on opposite ends of the spectrum (at least of mounted pickup electric archtops)

what brings them together is - at least - the fact that they cost about the same new.

i don't think issues to do with comfort separate these guitars. its interesting that 17'' is perfect for sitting positions - and the 3/8'' off the depth will make it very comfortable. it may be more comfortable than the L4 - sitting at least.

i've had an L4 - did hundreds of gigs on it - thought (20 years ago) that it was a huge step up in quality from the 175 (tone mostly but finish too).

been thinking very seriously indeed about a tal farlow. love tal farlow - find his sound very engaging and fantastically original (the monk of guitar perhaps) - but i don't think i like it as much as herb, jimmy r, jim hall, kenny burrell, peter bernstein...

so i think that should settle the question really - if i know i basically prefer the 175 sounds (there are way more than one) - then i should not go for a tal farlow guitar.

but i love the scale length and i love the presentation of the instrument - and i love the clarity and definition of the sound. i play a be-bop based style. i just worry that i really want something softer - gentler - fatter - darker. if you listen to the musicians friend's clips of the new tal farlows and the new gibson l4s it tells a story.

the reason i'm favoring the L4 over the 175 is the consistency of L4s. i'm sure you are much more likely to get a good one than if you buy a near mint 2000 175 off the internet - for example. that, and it seems to me that the man in the video above is about right - that the L4 sounds a lot like the 175 just a bit warmer or darker. so its like getting a very mellow or dark sounding 175 - and that's the kind i would want.

it seems to me that the tal sounds like a 60's jazz guitar and the L4 sounds like an 80s jazz guitar...

so which of these guitars would you get if you wanted to spend this much on a gibson archtop?

thanks everyone!

[rpguitar]

That phrase might rhyme nicely, but any correlation between scale and sustain is only there in a laboratory or textbook. With respect to electric instruments, sustain is going to be based mostly on mass of the instrument, stiffness of the bridge materials, and pickup characteristics.

I could bring up the inevitable claim that "I have a 24.75" scale guitar that blows away my 25.5" scale guitar in terms of sustain" - but I'll spare you (even though it's true!).

The OP brought up P94 pickups as a late mention. I like humbuckers on my 175, so I would definitely do the trade.

[vinnyv1k]

Very hard choice but I will say these are both the best archtop values from Gibson period. The L4 is king of mellow sweetness and the Tal is king of bop tone. If I could only have 2 guitars it would be a L4 and a Tal but could not chose between the 2. I love them both equally but they sound very differently with the Tal being a better all around guitar IMO. The L4 mahogany has a sweetness though that I have not herd from any other archtop.

[Franz 1997]

without knowing if the amps, amp settings, strings, etc are the same, it's very difficult to compare from vids. I've had 4 175s from different eras, early 60s to 2000s, and a couple of L4s, one of which I still have. My observation is that ( my) laminate 175s constantly sounded fatter and more solid in the midrange ( and less complex) than carved-top L4s.

In those vids, surprisingly, the L4 sounded fatter than the TF to my ears, but the only way to compare and find out what you like is to try them, preferably through an amp you like rather than a shop amp. The 25.5 scale length of the TF will sound a little brighter than the shorter-scale L4. Still, I'd be surprised if the L4 sound fatter overall than the TF through the same signal chain/ strings etc. If the TF in the vid is going through that fender amp behind him with the pilot light on,
it's hardly going to sound fat, dark or mellow, more like scooped and bright!

But, these are only generalisations..no substitute for trying out individual instruments to find out which one speaks to you. 175s especially can be very variable tonally, in my experience, and I'd never buy one now without trying it though my own setup. No experience of TFs.

[Dutchbopper]

Guys, I feel reluctant to post yet another video but I feel my 175 sounds way darker than your average L4. The sound is less complex, but woodier and dryer too. Just as I like it!

I recorded my 175 through my Mambo with all eq flat:

And when I turn the treble just a bit down it sounds like this:

My Tal too sounds way darker than in the above clip. The Tal in the clip sounds good but not very Farlowesque. The guy is playing through a Twin Reverb. A Mambo would yield very different results.

Regards,

DB

[gggomez]

Off topic but cool that Chuck Berry has been mentioned and showed respect. Good on your Jazz Forum friends, I am proud of you.

P94's in an ES175 I would love to hear that, can you record something. I am thinking Midnight Blue and Jesse Van Rueller (who uses P94's) overtones. Any wonder you think it is currently perfect.

I have thought of doing the same but every now and then when I get to turn my Princeton up to 5 and that slams the door on that idea.

[vinnyv1k]

I agree with DB that a 175 and a Tal are darker than a L4 mahogany. The L4 has this sweetness about it that is not bright or dark. Hard to describe. Best word is mellow. I am not talking the older L4's with the plywood maple back and sides. Completely different animal but nice in it's own right too. Everyone's ear is different to please. What sounds great to me may sound horrible to you. Even within the same model each one will have it's own voice and it is not like you can walk into any music store and try out 5 different Tal's at once. I went through countless 175's before I got one that sounded good to me. Not easy getting that special archtop regardless of the model.