Best Amplification for arch tops with floating pickups

[gasvictim]

Hi,

I just wanted to solicit views from members here on what are the most compatible amplifiers for arch tops with floating humbuckers. While guitars with floating pickups are supposed to sound better acoustically than built in ones, it may not necessarily sound as thick and warm when amplified. Given this handicap when amplified, are there specific amplifiers you can recommend that would work very well with arch tops with floating pickups? By that I mean you could still get (i) that acoustic quality and (ii) that warm and thick sound?

Are solid state amps like the Clarus/Chameleon or the Henriksen the best options? Any more?

Appreciate your views.

Thanks

[Spook410]

There isn't a handicap amplified IMHO. The pickup works the same regardless of what it's bolted to. I have two identical solid wood 17" archtops. One is a floater, the other a built in. The floater model sounds richer both acoustic and amplified. However, it generates feedback a whole lot easier limiting application to low volume scenarios only.

I like Kent Armstrong hand wound jazz models in built in or floater. You may find something as good that's cheaper (KA's are $160) but I don't think you'll find something better.

I like my weighs-a-ton Fender tube amp. However, I find myself playing an amp emulator (Fender Mustang floor model) into a PA most of the time. Of course, I'm not lugging an amp to gig's or having to work out balance problems with whoever is running the PA.

[kamlapati]

For ages my main amp for a L-5CN (floating JS PU)has been a Fender Deluxe Reverb. People would compliment my tone, often commenting on the little bit of break up when I dug in, a very 50's/60's authentic tone. Just this week I picked up an as-new Polytone Mini Brute II and I can see what people like in a solid state jazz specialist style amp. The EQ is much more usable and versatile. But both amps sound good, both have their own voice.

I have even used my little PA, a Yamaha StagePas 500, for some gigs, and it sounded good too. It sounded even better when I added the EA of an LR Baggs Para DI.

Here's my opinion: learning how to use you amp is much more important than which amp you have.

[Jonathan0996]

I don't think you can generalize about this sort of thing. I was surprised that my 17" archtop with a floating pickup sounds great with an old Fender tube amp while my 16" laminate with a set pickup sounds better with my AI Corus. I expected it to be the other way around.

I think you have to try a guitar with different amps. Kamlapati is right; every amp has its own voice, and you have to find what appeals to you.

[kris]

I tried my 17" arch-top with my AER Compact XL.The sound is clean and very acoustic...but last time I use Peavey Classic-30 with Eminence Tonker speaker- I like the tube sound /fat,warm,heavier sound/.Kent Armstrong hand wound pick up is great.

[GNAPPI]

Hi,

I just wanted to solicit views from members here on what are the most compatible amplifiers for arch tops with floating humbuckers. While guitars with floating pickups are supposed to sound better acoustically than built in ones, it may not necessarily sound as thick and warm when amplified. Given this handicap when amplified, are there specific amplifiers you can recommend that would work very well with arch tops with floating pickups? By that I mean you could still get (i) that acoustic quality and (ii) that warm and thick sound?


Thanks

I've always felt that a great guitar will make a crap amp sound good, while a crap guitar will make a great amp sound like crap :-)

I have a bunch of amps and your needs are really important in picking one. Is it for practice, small venue, large halls?

Anyway...The best amp I EVER had (and still have) for EQ correction without pedals is my Fender Super Twin. This amp is the one exception to my opening statement, it will make a refrigerator with strings sound good.

[4mal]

I have a few to choose from. The two I like best are a Silverface Priceton Reverb, housed in a Fender Deluxe sized cabinet using and old Altec 417. It is a fabulous sounding amp that sees use in low stage volume gigs and recording. Warm and articulate up to a point. There is only so far you can go with 12 watts even if the speaker is as efficient as has ever been made.... Then again that is what mic's are for...

Polar opposite but very good is a GK MB200 solid state bass head housed in a custom sealed back but ported 1x10, roughly 1 cubic foot volume wise. Eminence Deltalite 2510 speaker. Can get stupid loud, is phenomenally clear and the articulation is off the charts. I've been front ending that with light compression and sometimes chorus and sometimes an ever so slight bit of distortion from a Sparkle Drive. Just a hair of warmth.

I use that amp with a couple of piezo equipped basses when playing under acoustic instruments. It's a go to for me these days ... I'm bassist first, guitarist second in live playing.

The steel guitar and country clean twang communities seem to like the MB200 a bunch. They pop up installed in tooled tolex bound combos from time to time. Often woth a neodynium based 15 from Spica. Something like 2 lbs and 200 watts... For the head and crystal clear. 4 band active EQ that does boost or cut. Just about as far from the Priceton Reverb as I can get...

I'm most interested in hearing the archtop through an LR Baggs Venue DI and good monitors...

[2bornot2bop]

It's easy to generalize while failing to acknowledge the synergy one achieves is all based upon a combination of all components involved, i.e., guitar, amp, ones acoustic environment (room), technique, on and on, etc...and to complicate matters no two archtops are identical...they're like Wes' thumb. One off's all around, imo.

I own a Hendriksen, and several floaters, the best being a KA custom handwound. Nice synergy with this pair for a moderately sized room. The room I use, also doubling as my audio room, is treated with typical audiophile acoustic dampening material...which again, is why the room is added to the list above for it too is another variable in the result chain.

I like Kent Armstrong hand wound jazz models in built in or floater.

+1 - I've owned both too in various guitars now, and my last one is a floater that exceeded the performance of a set pup KA...but since the archtops weren't the same the comparison was a false and unfair one.

[Frank67]

The room I use, also doubling as my audio room, is treated with typical audiophile acoustic dampening material...which again, is why the room is added to the list above for it too is another variable in the result chain.

I agree with that - the room is really important. At home in my living room I like the Henricksen much better (actually, I find its sound awsome there) than in the larger practice room with lots of other instruments playing - in such an environment I feel that a tube amp cuts through quite a bit better.

[jorgemg1984]

I've always felt that a great guitar will make a crap amp sound good, while a crap guitar will make a great amp sound like crap :-)

I have a bunch of amps and your needs are really important in picking one. Is it for practice, small venue, large halls?

Anyway...The best amp I EVER had (and still have) for EQ correction without pedals is my Fender Super Twin. This amp is the one exception to my opening statement, it will make a refrigerator with strings sound good.

Well I don't agree with any of these sentences.. I've had the unfortunate experience of having my 65 X-500 sound like crap with some amps. And I have played the Super Twin and felt it needed eq pedals (as most amps do to me).

I am not an expert on floating pickups but most flat frequency "jazz amps" will work fine. I tend to like them with more guitar oriented speakers like an EV or a Jensen Neo / Tornado than the PA-type speakers they usually bring.

[kris]

I think sound is a very personal ....:-)

[feet]

i made a post about this recently, too. in my limited experience with things i had around the house, i preferred my solid state jc77 with my floater, and my tube amps with guitars with set in pups.

[GNAPPI]

Well I don't agree with any of these sentences.. I've had the unfortunate experience of having my 65 X-500 sound like crap with some amps. And I have played the Super Twin and felt it needed eq pedals (as most amps do to me).

I'm just the opposite, I feel that if an amp NEEDS a pedal, I DO NOT need that amp :-) As usual, YMMV

[rpguitar]

If you have an archtop with a floating pickup, you will usually play it in one of two modes:

1) As an acoustic guitar, amplifying only when you need to perform LIVE or with a group; or
2) As an electric guitar, with the sound of the pickup being the tone you are primarily seeking.

I have found that #1 is a losing exercise. There is no pickup and no amp in the world that makes an acoustic archtop sound like itself, only louder. For that, you need a good microphone and a full range PA.

If #2, then the amp is a fundamental part of the tone equation, inseparable from the guitar. A tube amp tends to smooth out the tone, and we all know the warm, vintage vibe that the good ones can produce. A good modern solid state "jazz" amp is punchy and clear, with a balanced tonal response. These can help bring out the acoustic nature of an archtop, but it's a very generous allowance to call the effect "acoustic." It's more like "full dynamic range."

I use a '79 Princeton Reverb in a custom cabinet with a 12" for my tube amp. My solid state rigs are a Jazzmaster Ultralight, and an AI Clarus 2R into either a Redstone RSv8er or an Avatar ported bass cabinet with a 12" and a tweeter.

[GNAPPI]

I use a '79 Princeton Reverb in a custom cabinet with a 12" for my tube amp.

The PR is a fine amp, and can do more than most expect out of it.

[Klatu]

My take is that carved guitars with floating pickups sound best amplified when the guitar's acoustic properties are emphasized in amplification. That is why I think the Acoustic Image Clarus is the top of the line amp when it comes to acoustic archtops. Since the amp imparts very little of its own personality on the sound, it allows the guitar to do most of the speaking.

IMO on the other hand, laminate electrics sound best when paired with amps that have character of their own to add to the sound. For example, I think that Fender amps, with their mid scooped tube sound, sound better with laminate guitars than they do with carved floating pickup guitars.

If you're playing a solid carved floating pickup archtop and haven't tried an Acoustic Image Clarus, you owe it to yourself to give one a shot. The clarity and detail of sound that you get from a well made acoustic amp just might be what you're looking for.

[jorgemg1984]

I'm just the opposite, I feel that if an amp NEEDS a pedal, I DO NOT need that amp :-) As usual, YMMV

The only amp I have tried so far that I would not need external eq is the Mambo. All the other have either boomy / thin, sparkle / dead, ice pcik / fat issues. I have not met a preamp that excels my Fromel Shape EQ and a fully parametric two-band eq combination... But let's see

[jorgemg1984]

My take is that carved guitars with floating pickups sound best amplified when the guitar's acoustic properties are emphasized in amplification. That is why I think the Acoustic Image Clarus is the top of the line amp when it comes to acoustic archtops. Since the amp imparts very little of its own personality on the sound, it allows the guitar to do most of the speaking.

IMO on the other hand, laminate electrics sound best when paired with amps that have character of their own to add to the sound. For example, I think that Fender amps, with their mid scooped tube sound, sound better with laminate guitars than they do with carved floating pickup guitars.

If you're playing a solid carved floating pickup archtop and haven't tried an Acoustic Image Clarus, you owe it to yourself to give one a shot. The clarity and detail of sound that you get from a well made acoustic amp just might be what you're looking for.

Well if the amp is basically a PA (like the AI) it's all about the pickup. If you believe a floating humbucker reproduces the sound of a guitar better than an in-built full size one your theory is correct.

In my experience a magnetic pickup is a magnetic pickup... It will tell you how the guitar sounds but will also have a lot of his sound no matter what size or how is it installed. Bernstein's Zeidler sound is a good example, different from his earlier sound but still in the PAF area.

In order to have a "true tone" and use amps like the AI one must avoid magnetic pickups and search for a different solution imo.

[GNAPPI]

The only amp I have tried so far that I would not need external eq is the Mambo. All the other have either boomy / thin, sparkle / dead, ice pcik / fat issues. I have not met a preamp that excels my Fromel Shape EQ and a fully parametric two-band eq combination... But let's see

I couldn't find a pre-amp I liked so I found a decent reference design and made my own. It's all tube, 2 12ax's run at real B+ voltages instead of starvation low voltage mode.

My main reason for the Pre was to warm up some of my solid state practice amps which sound real thin and have no high volume character. As far as tube EQ goes, shaping the envelope from the manufacturer spec is very easily done. Peavey (believe it or not) had some incredibly good ideas on EQ in the 80's but alas they were in 100+ watt monsters where most never heard it.

[kris]

Well if the amp is basically a PA (like the AI) it's all about the pickup. If you believe a floating humbucker reproduces the sound of a guitar better than an in-built full size one your theory is correct.

In my experience a magnetic pickup is a magnetic pickup... It will tell you how the guitar sounds but will also have a lot of his sound no matter what size or how is it installed. Bernstein's Zeidler sound is a good example, different from his earlier sound but still in the PAF area.

In order to have a "true tone" and use amps like the AI one must avoid magnetic pickups and search for a different solution imo.

:-) Bernstein use tube amp anyway...

[Klatu]

Well if the amp is basically a PA (like the AI) it's all about the pickup. If you believe a floating humbucker reproduces the sound of a guitar better than an in-built full size one your theory is correct.

In my experience a magnetic pickup is a magnetic pickup... It will tell you how the guitar sounds but will also have a lot of his sound no matter what size or how is it installed. Bernstein's Zeidler sound is a good example, different from his earlier sound but still in the PAF area.

In order to have a "true tone" and use amps like the AI one must avoid magnetic pickups and search for a different solution imo.

Perhaps you are right, but your analysis doesn't correspond with my experience. I have a fairly good collection of guitars ranging from fully carved guitars with floater and fully carved guitars with built-in pickups to laminate guitars with built-in pickups, it seems to me that one of the most significant differences between them is how the pickup in installed in a guitar rather than the brand being used.

One of my guitars is a solid carved Dell Arte gypsy guitar that comes equipped with a piezo in the bridge. It sounds very natural and manages to preserve many of its acoustic properties when amplified, but it doesn't necessarily sound more acoustic than my Heritage Eagles with floating pickups or Hofner New President with floating pickup when played through the Acoustic Image.

I haven't tried to use a piezo pickup with either the Heritage or Hofner guitars, but I suspect that while the sound might be different, it wouldn't necessarily be more acoustic.

From what I have read, the best way to amplify the true acoustic sound of an instrument is to use a microphone; however, this is an impractical option for me. I am satisfied having a beautiful acoustic sound that reasonably approximates the sound of my instrument because I like to hear some stringy-ness in the sound.

By "stringy", I refer to the recorded tones of Johnny Smith, Peter Bernstein, and many of the gypsy players including Bireli Lagrene.

[mambosun]

By that I mean you could still get (i) that acoustic quality and (ii) that warm and thick sound?

It's not an easy question, and as many have already stated, tone is a pure matter of personal taste.
With my jazzbox equipped with a very good floater (Bartolini) I had hard time to select the right amp after testing more than a dozen and finally bought the superchamp xd, since I was looking for an affordable and compact model for home pratice. I think Princeton would be a good option too, though a more expensive one, in order to get this classic fat and smooth electric tone.
In my experience, floater and set-in PU don't sound the same, have a look to this video which clearly demonstrate the tone differences here:

!

I finally ended up swaping the floater with a set in HB, and I like my tone much more.
Every specific amp for acoustic guitar I tried didn't sound right to me.
Again, it's my own fexperience, your findings surely won't be the same. My only advice, bring your guitar in shops and try as much amps as possible.

[Spook410]

A floating humbucker won't reproduce the acoustic sound of the guitar like a microphone. It does however, capture some of the extra stringy woodiness you get from a more resonant instrument.

[gasvictim]

Dear all thanks a lot for your valuable inputs. It just tells me that I am not alone with all this experimentation on jazz boxes and compatible amps. That is why my amp collection has caught up with my axe collection haha....

[jorgemg1984]

I couldn't find a pre-amp I liked so I found a decent reference design and made my own. It's all tube, 2 12ax's run at real B+ voltages instead of starvation low voltage mode.

My main reason for the Pre was to warm up some of my solid state practice amps which sound real thin and have no high volume character. As far as tube EQ goes, shaping the envelope from the manufacturer spec is very easily done. Peavey (believe it or not) had some incredibly good ideas on EQ in the 80's but alas they were in 100+ watt monsters where most never heard it.

My problem with preamps is that they don't provide enough eq possibilities... too many times I have to choose between boomy or thin sounds for example. You can mod them but still... pedals solved the issue for me.

But that's a talk for a new thread